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Councillors: Rose Seabourne (Chair) Stuart Ashley Catherine Bonera Ron Burnett Nick Byrne Richard Clark (Deputy Leader) Lynda Clarkson Liam Cowles Fiona Cross David Daniels Giles Davies Steven Evans Joanne Gauden Karl Gauden Elizabeth Haynes Jon Horlor Nick Horler Anthony Hunt (Leader) Gaynor James Jon James Janet Jones Mark Jones Peter Jones Rosemary Matthews Jason O’Connell Amanda Owen Norma Parrish Caroline Price Nicholas Simons Alan Slade Chris Tew Colette Thomas David Thomas Jayne Watkins David Williams Lucy Williams Nathan Yeowell Officers: Nigel Aurelius, Deputy Chief Executive Delyth Harries, Monitoring Officer and Assistant Chief Legal Officer Rebecca Fahey-Jones, Team Leader Scrutiny Neil Jones, Head of Communications, Engagement and Civil Contingencies Dave Leech, Strategic Director, Adults and Communities Jason Lewis, Director Corporate Services Andrew Lovegrove, Strategic Director Resources Dominique Redman, Team Leader Democratic and Member Services Tom Roberts, Business & Democratic Support Services Manager Jason O’Brien, Strategic Director, Children and Family Services Chris Slade, Assistant Democratic and Member Services Team Leader Deb Smith, Head of Shared Revenues & Benefits Mark Thomas, Deputy Chief Officer Highways & Climate Change Tianna Thomas, Shared Benefits Service Manager Stephen Vickers, Chief Executive Others: Natalia Silver, Local Partnerships Woodlands School Eco Council Rhodri Guest, Chair of Ethics and Standards Committee
2.1 Apologies for absence were received from Councillor Sue Morgan.
3.1 The Monitoring Officer and Assistant Chief Legal Officer (MO&ALO), referred to Agenda Item 9, Closer and Collaborative Working with Blaenau Gwent and informed Council that the Chief Executive would leave the room whilst the report was presented and when members voted on the recommendations. Council agreed that the Chief Executive could return to the meeting following presentation of the report and prior to the recommendations being agreed so that he could answer any questions that members might have.
4.1 Council confirmed the minutes of the Council meeting held on 17 December 2024 as an accurate record.
5.1 Council noted the action sheet.
6.1 There were no petitions.
7.1 There were no public questions.
8.1 The Leader: - Referred to Holocaust Memorial Day on 27 January 2025 which was a date that marked the liberation of Auschwitz and was used as an opportunity to commemorate the victims of genocide. He stated that years 9 to 11 school pupils were being offered the chance to hear a firsthand account from somebody with a personal connection to the atrocities of Nazi persecution. Eva Clarke would share her story and provide insights on the historical background of The Holocaust, the impact The Holocaust still has on modern society, and the lessons that could be learned from history. Her powerful testimony would be shared via a live webinar for schools in Torfaen, Blaenau Gwent and Caerphilly on Friday 24 January between 10am and noon, and Eva would also answer any questions. - Presented a Civic Award award to pupils and staff of Woodlands Primary School. He explained that Woodlands school Eco Council, supported by their teacher, had taken an active part in re-purposing a closed off play area situated outside their school. They initiated the project back in 2022, highlighting their concern and disappointment that the area had been closed for so long. This was due in part to the pandemic then subsequently to persistent vandalism. The project to re-purpose the play area evolved into a collaborative venture with the work being carried out by Bron Afon and the Gwent and Torfaen local Nature partnership. Woodlands school Eco Council provided the energy and creativity, taking part in the planning and design, as well as informing the different decisions to be taken. They had been unfailingly enthusiastic and committed. Supporting them along the way were staff, residents, parents and ward and community Councillors. The spaces for nature space in Bagley Court, Thornhill was finally opened on November 20th 2024, with a daylong planting event in which over 50 of the pupils took part. On behalf of TCBC and with thanks from officers from Bron Afon he was delighted to present this award. - Paid tribute to Nigel Aurelius, Deputy Chief Executive who was retiring after over 45 years of service. He commented that Nigel was one of the first officers he had met in his position as Executive Member Resources back in 2012, with whom he quickly built a productive working relationship with. He valued the alliance between members and officers to serve residents, and he felt that this was special in Torfaen. He commented that Nigel had always retained the professional ability to provide expert advice and a huge amount of knowledge on finance, with human qualities and the perspective of somebody who was a resident himself. He felt that Nigel had been steadfast in his safeguarding of the financial sustainability of the council and it’s services, and had also fostered a culture across the council of everyone working together for all services, not services fighting between one another. He valued Nigel’s work and advice hugely across the years, and he wished him a long and happy retirement. On behalf of the council, he thanked Nigel for all of his work. 8.2 The Chief Executive paid tribute to Nigel Aurelius, commenting that he was one of the first people he met when he came to Torfaen. He felt that Nigel was embedded in passion with an unwavering focus on the council. He further commented that over the past three years during his time at Torfaen, Nigel had been a guide and had always steered him in the right direction, with his loyalty, dedication, wizardry in his role and his ability being a true asset. He spoke of challenging situations whereby Nigel would calmly assess the situation, devise a plan, and lead with composure and expertise with exceptional leadership and problem solving and skills. He thanked Nigel for his support and friendship. On behalf of all Torfaen staff, past, present and future, he thanked Nigel for his 45 years of service, commenting that his legacy would last for many years to come. He wished Nigel all of the best and he hoped that his next chapter would be as extraordinary as his time with Torfaen. 8.3 Nigel Aurelius, Deputy Chief Executive thanked the Leader and the Chief Executive for their kind words. In summary, he commented that he was proud to have worked for the authority for 45 years, firstly for Gwent, then for Torfaen. He talked about his experiences in each of his roles since beginning his career as a 16 year old writing out cheques and salary cards, to ending his career in a senior position. He commented around the challenges he had faced during his career, and he referred in particular to the financial crash, the years of austerity, and the COVID Pandemic. He paid tribute to all who he had worked with, whom he regarded as close colleagues and friends, and he commented in particular around the support he had received from his colleagues and from members following his open-heart surgery in 2017. He further commented that all staff played an important role in the running of the local authority, with same goals in mind. He was proud of the culture and of the mutual respect and trust between members and officers, which resulted in better outcomes. He also commented around hybrid working and the importance of coming into the workplace, particularly the debating Chamber which he would like to see full more regularly. He thanked all elected members past and present and commented that the financial picture was always challenging, however, he was confident in the Chief Executive who was driven, had good vision, and a resolute approach. 8.4 The Presiding Member and other Members wished Nigel a happy and healthy retirement.
The Chief Executive left the meeting. 9.1 The Director, Corporate Services, outlined the report presenting to Council the findings of the initial ‘discovery’ phase of the review into closer and collaborative working opportunities between Torfaen and Blaenau Gwent County Borough Councils. He presented the following two options for Members in determining the Council's next steps. • Move the current arrangements for closer working on to a more permanent footing, taking forward the recommendations for closer working set out within the Local Partnerships report at Appendix 1 to the report. This option would include agreement to the appointment of Stephen Vickers as the permanent Joint Chief Executive for both Councils and the outline of the subsequent work programme and prerequisite arrangements to establish closer and collaborative working arrangements between both Councils; or • Decide not to take forward the recommendations for closer working set out within the Local Partnerships report at Appendix 1 to the report. This option would see current arrangements remaining in place for a further 6 months, with Stephen Vickers operating as the shared Chief Executive for this period, in order to support Blaenau Gwent to recruit a new Chief Executive. 9.2 9.3 9.4 9.5 The Leader commented as follows: · To preserve services and improve outcomes, it was essential to be innovative and to consider new ways of working. · The report answered some key points made to members whilst out on the street in terms of targeting savings from the top. · He thanks Blaenau Gwent for their open-minded constructive approach to the work. The spirit of partnership working was key, and such collaborations worked well. · The values of both local authorities were aligned and there were opportunities to learn from each other in different areas, resulting in the best outcome for residents and for services. · This was not a merger of two councils, there would be areas where each local authority would continue to work separately. However, there were areas where collaborative working could present opportunities. · This was not about having fewer staff, it was about equipping and empowering existing staff and helping them to work more effectively. · There could be opportunities for bigger teams to provide more resilience and opportunities for career progression. Teams had been reduced over the years and a single absence or a single person departing a team could heap a huge amount of stress and workload on those who were left. · He referred to the report was reassured that the balance was right. The work had been driver by leadership rather than for leadership, which he felt was a key distinction. · The Chief Executive had the energy and drive to deliver, he was never satisfied with the status quo and he always aimed to do things better, and to make things more effective, and he was confident that the Chief Executive could take the work forward. · Succession planning and attracting senior staff was vital, and this could be achieved better with two councils working together. · Each local authority would retain sovereignty whilst getting the best of both worlds and leading to a legacy of better services and better chances for communities to build resilience whilst working towards the Marmot principles. · He commended the report to council. Some members expressed concerns that the proposals set out within the report would lead the way to a merging of both local authorities, and therefore they felt it was important for upfront and honest discussions to take place around the impact on service levels in the future; the alignment of teams underneath the leadership structure; and any detrimental impact the proposals could have on both local authorities. The Chief Executive rejoined the meeting. Considerable discussion ensued with some members expressing concerns around the rejected proposals made in 2015 to merge with Blaenau Gwent, and they questioned what had changed since then. These members felt that there were considerable risks involved given that Blaenau Gwent had a smaller budget, carried a lot more debt, had three weekly waste collections, and council tax was higher. Concerns were also expressed around the costs associated with closer working arrangements, and the risks associated around costs if closer working arrangements didn’t work out in the future. Other members supported the proposals around closer and collaborative working with Blaenau Gwent and felt clear that the report did not propose a merger and that each local authority would retain sovereignty whilst working collaboratively and learning from each other to achieve the best outcomes for residents in Torfaen and Blaenau Gwent. In response to comments and questions by members, the following main points were made: - Section 1.3 of the appendix clearly set out some of the benefits that could be achieved as a result of closer working. - The Chief Executive wholeheartedly felt that the proposals were achievable and realistic and would result in financial savings, economies of scale, greater effectiveness in terms of learning from best practice and an opportunity to retain discretionary services that were significantly at risk bearing in mind the financial positions that the two councils were in. There were staff challenges, but the new approach would provide an opportunity to improve, and attract and retain staff in order to be able to deliver services for residents. There were benefits of a ‘combined louder voice’ at a regional and national level, which presented opportunities to think differently around long term planning across both councils and achieving the masterplan alongside the Marmot Principles. - There were a number of things to bear in mind with regards to costs to date. He explained that Local Partnerships had been commissioned and work had been delivered months ahead of schedule. Savings benefited from sharing a Chief Executive had been used to fund the work of Local Partnerships at a cost of approximately £35k in total. - Each local authority would retain sovereignty in terms of democratic processes and budgetary management, and members would remain accountable to the public in which they served in BG and Torfaen. - There would be no council tax alignment, and each local authority would retain the ability to make decisions individually around matters such as bin collections and revenues and benefits, and also political decisions. This would not have been the case with the proposals put forward in 2015 which were much more specific in terms of alignment. - By working together more closely in areas such as children’s services, learning could take place around referral pathways in, management of cases, the commissioned market, training and support for staff, and structures within the organisation to support staff both in terms of early intervention and the delivery of services. A whole range of areas was under review across children and adult services, supported by sitting around the same executive leadership table and having extended leadership team meetings. - Different councils would be elected and would continue to work together with any new administration making their own decisions in any way they wanted to. - Savings had already outweighed the costs and these savings could be put back in to services to help manage the change process. - Positive conversations had been had with Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) who were looking to support both local authorities with the process, including the investment in a Transformation Team. There was interest in the work that both councils were proposing outside of the authority. It was considered that the benefits would far outweigh any costs to each local authority, although a large proportion of the transformational costs would be picked up from outside of both authorities. - It was impossible to predict costs of a future decision to not continue with closer working arrangements. If a decision was made to change the leadership function, it would not mean that all collaborative working arrangements would stop, this would need to be considered on a case-by-case basis with each case judged on its own merit. - The importance of accountability was recognised, and members were assured of transparency moving forward. There would be an engagement process and updates would regularly be reported to council and member seminars would be held to keep members informed of progress. - There were challenges around the ability to fill and retain posts in some areas, particularly where the private sector could outbid. There was a need to find a way of attracting and retaining in these areas. - There would be a need to change with regards to the roles of the executive team and the leadership team. It was important to invest in a Transformation Team to provide support through the work and to consider the delivery of important services. The programme of work had been set over a period of three years as there was a need to understand where the pressures are and to prioritise where the changes were required. As long as the right plan and support was in place, the changes being proposed would be manageable within the timetable set. 9.6 The Chief Executive left the meeting. 9.7 A recorded vote was taken, with members voting as shown in the table below, with 29 members voting in favour of the recommendations and 8 members voting against the recommendations. Council agreed, with the majority voting in favour to: • Move the current arrangements for closer working on to a more permanent footing, taking forward the recommendations for closer working set out within the Local Partnerships report at Appendix 1 to the report. This option included agreement to the appointment of Stephen Vickers as the permanent Joint Chief Executive for both Councils, subject to the recommendation being also approved by Blaenau Gwent County Borough Council. • Note that this decision will result in subsequent actions delegated to the Joint Chief Executive as Head of Paid Service as described in paragraphs 4.2 – 4.7 of the report. • Note that a decision to not to take forward the recommendations for closer working set out within the Local Partnerships report at Appendix 1 to the report, would see current arrangements remaining in place for a further 6 months, with Stephen Vickers operating as the shared Chief Executive for this period, to support Blaenau Gwent to recruit a new Chief Executive. COUNCILLOR FOR AGAINST Stuart Ashley ü Catherine Bonera ü Ron Burnett ü Nick Byrne ü Richard Clark ü Lynda Clarkson ü Liam Cowles ü Fiona Cross ü David Daniels ü Giles Davies ü Steven Evans ü Joanne Gauden ü Karl Gauden ü Elizabeth Haynes ü Nick Horler ü Jon Horlor ü Anthony Hunt ü Gaynor James ü Jon James ü Janet Jones ü Mark Jones ü Peter Jones ü Rosemary Matthews ü Jason O’Connell ü Amanda Owen ü Norma Parrish ü Caroline Price ü Rose Seabourne ü Nicholas Simons ü Alan Slade ü Chris Tew ü Colette Thomas ü David Thomas ü Jayne Watkins ü David Williams ü Lucy Williams ü Nathan Yeowell ü The Chief Executive re-joined the meeting.
10.1 The Deputy Chief Executive outlined the report recommending for approval the Council Tax Reduction Scheme (CTRS) for 2025/26. No significant changes, last time asked to approve, wg proposals, national scheme going tforward that they will approve. 10.2 10.3 In response to a question around any specific failures in previous schemes, how these had been addressed, and how measurable outcomes would be enforced, the Deputy Chief Executive explained that the scheme presented to Council was fundamentally exactly the same scheme that had been approved over previous years and therefore he wouldn’t suggest that there were any failures in the previous scheme or the scheme being presented. With regards to measurable benefits, he further explained that Wales retained a 100% council tax reduction scheme whereby 100% support would be given where means required this, whereas in parts of England where it was delegated down to local authorities, this was not necessarily the case. The scheme supported the most vulnerable in society and if that support didn’t exist, they would fall behind with council tax payments and council tax recovery would suffer. The Leader referred to section 6 of the report which confirmed that the Council Tax Reduction Scheme which was widely advertised by the council was currently helping 9,442 cases providing up to 100% relief on their council tax. He reminded members of the claims freephone number 03004563559, and the online claim form with the council also assisted residents with completing. He commended the proactive work of the team in revenues and benefits to help maximise take-up of the scheme which had also been used as a best practice example across Wales, meaning that people had access to support in Torfaen that they were entitled to. He also encouraged members to advertise the scheme to assist to those were in need of support. 10.4 Council unanimously agreed to: • Continue to note the making of the Council Tax Reduction Scheme and Prescribed Requirements (Wales) Regulations ("the Prescribed Requirements Regulations") 2013 by the Welsh Government on 26 November 2013 [see appropriate links above]. • Adopt the provisions within the Prescribed Requirements Regulations above together with the Amendment Regulations in 3.4 – 3.5 of the report in respect of its scheme for the financial year 2025/26; • Approve the discretionary elements in 5.2 of the report as the Council’s local scheme from 1 st April 2025. • Affirm that should there be any further uprating amendments during the year these will be carried out without a requirement to adopt the whole Council Tax Reduction Scheme.
11.1 There were no motions on notice.
12.1 Member questions with replies are set out in Appendix A to these minutes.
13.1 The next meeting was scheduled for Tuesday 4 March 2025 at 10.00am.
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