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There is no summary of this meeting yet. One is written once the council publishes the minutes. The agenda and papers are below.
Apologies received from: Committee lay member Gareth Hall, County Councillor Pete Roberts, Officers Diane Reynolds (Director of Economic Development and Growth) and Marianne Evans (Head of Transforming Education), Audit Wales Officer Gareth Jones, SWAP Officer Ian Halstead.
There were no declarations of interest relating to items on the agenda.
Chair’s title to be amended. There were no other issues raised regarding the minutes of the previous meeting held on the 15th of January 2025 and the Committee resolved to authorise the Chair to sign the minutes as a true reflection of the meeting.
Background Presented by Audit Wales Officers Emma Woodcock and Euros Lake. • Since the Audit Wales Quarter 3 Work Programme and Timetable paper was produced the Teachers’ Pension Audit had been sent to Teachers Pension Authority, leaving 2 outstanding reports. 2022-23 work Programme • 1 report remained outstanding for which a draft report was due to be issued to officers, with a view to finalise and conclude during the next quarter. 2023-24 Work Programme: • Audit Wales was in the process of concluding the thematic review of Council’s arrangements to ensure value for money when commissioning services. • In the process of scoping the Corporate Governance Review. 2024-25 Work Programme: • Risk management arrangements would be a focus going forward, with interviews scheduled for the end of March 2025. • The Thematic Review of Staffing and Resourcing Pressures in Local Government had been deferred to 2025-26. • Fieldwork was being conducted on the National Review of Capital Planning in Local Government. Issues Raised by the Committee Responses Received The committee requested an update on the Thematic Review of Staffing Resources and requested that this be rescheduled with urgency. Confirmation was given that this would be timetabled into the 2025-26 programme. Who set the scope for the reviews undertaken? Audit Wales set the scope for reviews but Terms of Reference were drafted with the Council. Assurance was provided that the effectiveness of arrangements was tested wherever possible. The committee requested to have sight of the remit of the Corporate Governance Review prior to finalisation and requested input into its Terms of Reference. Committee was reminded that Audit Wales set the scope of work but were happy to engage with the Council.
Background presented by James Chappelle (Capital & Financial Planning Accountant). • The Capital Position had a substantially lower budget than in previous years due to reprofiling. • The amount of borrowing for 2024/25 was estimated at £19 million, half of which related to the housing revenue account. • PWLB rates changed throughout the year. • The cost of borrowing shown in table 4 on 3.29 of the report had increased this year due to higher-than-expected interest rates. • The Council’s treasury advisors MUFG Corporate Markets (previously known as Link) had provided an updated forecast in Feb, since this report was drafted. • The report shows how Sundry Debt changed since the last quarter. Issues Raised by the Committee Responses Received Majority of surplus funds were held in deposit accounts, but paragraph 3.6 referred to holding no investments. Where was the extra money if no surplus deposits were held? The Capital and Financial Planning Accountant explained that the Authority only had investments with Banks not out with other parties. It was agreed that the wording needed to be amended. ACTION The funds had earned interest of £0.6 million. How did this compare to the budget? The Council had not budgeted for income from interest received, thus any figure above 0 would be an improvement on the budget. The committee raised concern over the ability of the Council to borrow from the Public Works Loan Board and how this would affect future budgets, due to lack of ability to purchase assets for yield. There were no plans to put anything in the capital programme that was solely for yield. If necessary, the Council would look to borrow from other Local Authorities or Banks. The committee asked whether sundry debt having increased to £15.57million was a concern. Increases in aged debt would be a concern. However, assurance was given that this was managed. The Director of Corporate Services and Section 151 Officer added that an increase in overall debt level was not necessarily a bad thing. It demonstrated that the authority was raising as much income as possible. The method for managing and recovering debt was equally important. Work was ongoing with individual services to improve transparency around their level of debt, and the use of dashboard supported the review of outstanding debt and plan the recovery process. Adult services Sundry Debt had increased over time. How did this compare to other local authorities? The Deputy Head of Finance answered that no detailed benchmarking was available. It was acknowledged that Powys had an older demographic, but this issue was not unique. Clarification was requested regarding the use of the word ‘other’ in table 5. The Capital and Financial Planning Accountant took an action to provide a breakdown of this. ACTION PWLB Rates were shown to be in excess of 5.6% in the report but rates were currently 4.6%. Did the change in interest rate affect the Council’s strategy for debt restructure? The service tried to keep borrowing to 1-3 years at most so that the Council would be able to borrow at a lower rate in future when the debts mature as interest rates were anticipated to fall. Were interest rates acting as predicted and was the Council planning on changing its strategy? The MUFG revised their forecast in February 2025, and due to the volatility of the market, predictions were changing constantly. The Council was not planning on changing its strategy. Highways Sundry Debt had increased significantly in the Q2 Treasury Management Report and had increased further in the Q3 Report. Why was this? Last quarter was due to street works and bonds turning into aged debts. An explanation for the increase in Q3 could be provided. ACTION Was Sundry debt anticipated to decrease by the end of the financial year? It would depend upon when it was paid, work could not commence until bonds were received. There was not great risk. Were any substantial write offs anticipated as a result of the new financial system expected to be in place by April 2026? The Director of Corporate Services answered that a new finance dashboard had been introduced which improved visibility and some level of debt write off was anticipated as a result of review work being carried out by individual services. The Committee requested a demonstration of the dashboards to understand methodology. A high-level demonstration could be shared. ACTION Clarification was sought regarding the seemingly contradicting statements relating to interest cost in Points 3.12 and 3.31 of the report. The Council had reduced the amount that it had to borrow, due to a reduction in its capital programme. However, the amount that has been borrowed was more expensive than expected due to interest rates. Paragraph 3.5 demonstrates 80% of council tax rates had been collected. Was this impacted by the method of payment? Was the report demonstrating the cashflow figure? Residents were encouraged to pay their council tax in 10 monthly instalments, hence why there was an 80% collection rate three quarters of the way through the year. Given the volatility of the world market, was provision needed for expert investment advice? Officers continued to liaise with the treasury advisors MUFG Corporate Market (formally Link) on all treasury matters and the Council was working to borrow as little as possible. The capital programme for next year was reviewed as part of the budget process and that has been reduced as much as possible to reduce exposure to interest rates. What was the membership of the Debt Working Group? Was there an officer/ member dimension? This was an internal officer working group made up of debt recovery team and finance officers. The work focussed around supporting services to develop strategies for different aged debts. Committee requested to be kept informed of the work of the Debt Working Group and asked that County Councillor David Thomas be kept in the loop on any learning points from the work. The Portfolio Holder for Finance and Corporate Transformation offered assurance that he was kept abreast of financial work through performance meetings. Had a new debt recovery officer been successfully recruited? The Deputy Head of Finance answered that the recovery officer role had been appointed to.
• Background presented by The Portfolio Holder for Finance and Corporate Transformation. • 15 risks on register, all owners provided summary of progress since last quarter. • Point 3.5 onward demonstrated risks requested for de-escalation. • Escalation of risk in strategic register 3.8 from the Education Service. • There were no direct resource implications relating to this report; however, all risk owners had to consider the resource implications of managing the risk and decide whether to tolerate or treat. • Estyn report would be published publicly on 27th of March. Issues Raised by the Committee Responses Received Should the risks EDR0011 and HTR018 be rerated if there was a correlation between the implementation of DIY waste charges and the dumping of rubbish? The Chief Officer of Place answered that the impact of the DIY waste charges would be monitored, and the risks would be reviewed and updated as necessary. An update was requested regarding Risk ASC0064. Concern was shared regarding partnership working. The Director of Social Services and Wellbeing answered that final contract negotiations and implementation plan were expected to be completed by Mid-March 2025. The costs of the plan were lower than anticipated. The implementation plan was well within the required timescales. A request for funding had been sent to Welsh Government. A detailed update was due to come to the Governance and Audit Committee on the 8th of May 2025 and to Health and Care Committee on the 9th of April 2025. Concern was shared regarding whether risk ASC0066 was being de-escalated prematurely, due to there being uncertainty around the financial support provided to care homes to support the increase in National Insurance contributions. This risk was escalated during COVID. The Council was now managing the risk in the service and with service providers. Mitigation actions were in place and robust and the risk of failure had reduced as additional domiciliary care providers had come into the market. The Risk Register would be reviewed regularly. The Director of Corporate Services added that no detailed information had been received as to the level of National Funding to be expected. Initial calculations suggested that costs for Council staff and Providers’ staff would be around £6million per annum. It was questioned whether risk ED0056 should be on the Strategic Risk Register as this was no longer a risk, but an actuality. It also did not have any scores or mitigations. Assurance was requested that the risk would be reevaluated following the publication of the upcoming Estyn Review. The Strategic Equalities and Risk Officer offered assurance that the ratings and mitigation were available in JCAD. 4 Mitigating actions listed: • Provide targeted support and resources to schools identified by Estyn to help them improve their standards. • Invest in professional development programmes for teachers and school leaders to enhance their skills and teaching methodologies. • Encourage collaboration between schools, sharing best practice and successful strategies to improve overall support performance. • Implement a robust monitoring and evaluation and monitoring system to track the progress of schools and ensure the improvements are sustained over time. Ratings of 12, with probability of ‘likely’ and moderate of 3 as of the 5th of March 2025. The Head of School Improvement and Learning explained that this was escalated to a corporate risk due to • Significant concern that over the years, Powys’s inspection outcomes had been poor, especially with the increase in recent years of secondary, all age Powys and Primary Schools also going into a category. • There was concern over the level of education experienced by the Children of Powys and at a Corporate level, the reputational negative impact of Powys’s Estyn profile. • For every school that goes into a category the resource allocation is significant, causing concern for funding leaving other schools and other corporate areas of the council. • Increased pressure would affect staff morale creating recruitment and retention risks. It was noted that the wording used in the mitigations listed for risk ED0056 had been used for some time. Improvements were not being seen, suggesting the mitigations unsuccessful. The Chair of the Learning and Skills Scrutiny Committee shared concern that there was no link acknowledged between school budgets and school standards.
Background Presented by the Professional Lead Consultancy and the Professional Adviser for Transforming Education. • A description and background of non-traditional construction technologies was presented and a concept design for Ysgol Golwg Pen y Fan was shared. • Modern methods of construction required early sign off and advanced payment, deviating from the usual approach and that any new building project would use modern methods of construction. • It was noted that Welsh Government was a key stakeholder, funding around 70% of education projects and must be with worked closely to meet the conditions of Welsh Government funding. • An ambitious work programme was in place for the transforming education agenda that needed to be delivered at pace. It was highlighted that all Welsh Local Authorities were experiencing similar problems, and Welsh Government should be challenged on the difficulty experienced in delivering projects, the support available and how procurement could be improved. This was particularly important due to the need to link in with Welsh Government regarding the economy strategy to maximise spend in Wales. • A suitable procurement route must be identified. • Highlighted that the insolvency risk was significant. Issues Raised by the Committee Responses Received The insolvency matter was a significant concern to the committee. The importance of ensuring contracts procured were beneficial to the local community was highlighted. To what extent did both approaches allow for learning from recent years construction? Designs followed an evolution, and all previous work was reviewed to inform future projects. Current designs used were developed from work undertaken in Welshpool. The Welsh Government’s Sustainable Communities for Learning Programme was launching a new suite of design standards for school projects to be delivered across Wales, which would be Welsh-specific and was developed from working with Local Authorities. Assurance was sought regarding the ability to work with local planning authorities. To an extent this is about the surface treatment put onto the exterior of the building. This had been modelled to achieve an appropriate sense of scale based on initial conversations with National Parks. Officers were confident that the solution as designed could be delivered without major change, irrespective of the construction technology behind the exterior. The committee noted that positive feedback had been shared regarding the responsiveness of officers to issues raised around environmental education. This was the challenge officers were working with. Assurance was requested around whether officers were making the best use of standardised units and hence if they were achieving the best value for money. In the process of developing a design that can be duplicated on other projects. A school would never achieve the full scale of savings associated with a volumetric building as this is most suited to designs with a lot of duplication, such as student accommodation. The focus would be on achieving value for money. What supplementary services could be provided in a redevelopment? (e.g. leisure facilities) Projects would be challenged through the five-stage business case process through Welsh Government to demonstrate how local school sites and investments were supporting local communities, (e.g. sport, co-location of services). Colleagues from leisure and other areas sat on the Transforming Education Board to support that mapping exercise and identify community needs. Non-education facilities would need to find alternative funding routes outside the Sustainable Communities for Learning Programme. The committee had decided to reestablish the capital working group under the chairmanship of lay member Gareth Hall.
Background Presented by the Senior Manager Customer Services and Information Governance Officer. • The paper presented was in relation to the Corporate Complaints Policy Review. • The following changes had been made to the policy for clarification: • The Policy did not cover complaints regarding data protection, social services, requests made under the freedom of information request regime or environmental information regulations. Separate policies were in place in relation to those. • Update contact details for the public • Include the public link for where to make complaints. • Clarification was added regarding the investigating officers needing clarification on information provided and the effect of this on timescales. • An explanation of how complaints were escalated to stage 2. • The removal of reference to the Senior Leadership Team considering complaints on a quarterly basis. • Reference to the Senior Leadership Team receiving the complaints on a quarterly basis was removed due to being unable to evidence that that was happening. • Report refers to resource implications in dealing with corporate complaints which is dealt with through the customer services team. • Further report to be brought to the committee, detailing lessons learned and examination of complaints. The report would include reference to how corporate complaints were dealt with and how responses were built into Sustainable Powys work and the customer experience framework. Issues Raised by the Committee Responses Received Section 2 mentioned separate legislations. Committee requested reference be made here to the separate Whistleblowing policy. This was agreed. Committee requested there be a cross read between the corporate complaints policy and the whistleblowing policy.
Background presented by Lynne Hamilton and County Councillor Peter Lewington. Internal Audit Working Group • Committee reviewed Audit Board reports and the performance of the conduct and progress of audit work as well as management reporting and responses to audit reports. • The working group agreed that improvement was needed around how audit performance reporting was undertaken and the timeliness and reporting of management actions. • Some actions needed accelerating. Some points where actions were differed to next meeting. • The working group plan to discuss a change to the reporting approach. To receive one report from SWAP on performance against their programme of work and another report from officers on the progress and performance of officers and teams in responding to Audit Recommendations. Whistleblowing Working Group • Thanks were shared to County Councillor Peter Lewington for Chairing the Whistleblowing Working Group. • Excellent engagement from legal and HR officers was noted. • Agreed the working group had concluded its work. In the process of finalising the reports to be tabled at the next Governance and Audit meeting. To include outcomes, recommendations and proposed future actions to be added to the forward work programme.
The work programme was noted.
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