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There is no summary of this meeting yet. Summaries are written once the council publishes the minutes, which are its official record of what a meeting decided. They usually appear a few weeks after the meeting.
Apologies for absence were received from County Councillor Sue McNicholas and Nancy Owen, Finance Manager.
There were no declarations of interest from Members relating to items for consideration on the agenda.
The Committee did not receive any disclosures of prohibited party whips which a Member has been given in relation to the meeting in accordance with Section 78(3) of the Local Government Measure 2011.
Documents Considered: 16.01.2025 proposed by Cllr Chloe Masefield and seconded by Cllr Carol Robinson and 12.02.2025 proposed by Cllr Lucy Roberts and seconded by Cllr Carol Robinson. The minutes were agreed by Committee members present as a true and accurate reflection of the meetings and ratified accordingly by the Chair.
Committee noted the length of time that had lapsed for the Cabinet responses to recommendations made by the Scrutiny Committee, to be received, in particular from the meeting in September 2024. The Portfolio Holder re-iterated his comment from the meeting of the 12th February 2025, where he stated that the delay was a conscious decision, due to the Schools consultation timeframe and not wanting a response to be adjudged as pre-determining an outcome. The Chair countered that the scrutiny process had been devalued, the 2 recommendations from September 2025 would not have affected the consultation. Disappointment was expressed that decisions were made by the Cabinet on the 21st February, without responses known, to proceed with notice of closure issued for the school concerned. The Portfolio Holder had taken on board the comments made and would notify of reason for any future late responses. The Director of Education would take the comments made to the Monitoring Officer and to officers within the Education Service, as well as discussing points raised with the Portfolio Holder.
Background: A precis of the proposal paper was given by Portfolio Holder for a Learning Powys, County Councillor Pete Roberts, as a request to Cabinet to proceed with formal consultation on the re-organisation of a school in line with the Transformation programme and the Welsh Education Strategic Plan (WESP), to establish a Welsh medium school that will in the longer term be the sole occupant of the Ysgol Calon Cymru site, with an English Medium school on the current site of Llandrindod Wells school campus. Included in the proposal was a proposal to move Builth Wells County Primary Welsh medium stream onto the Ysgol Calon Cymru site and move the primary school to English medium. Points raised by the Panel: Responses received from Officers or Cabinet Members. Point raised by officers in the presentation of the paper that the intentions of the previous council were clear, was not the case. The intention of the officers was clear, the previous administration had not taken a position on this proposal and had given significant push back. Builth and Llandrindod sites have been through one Transformation already, in the previous options appraisal was this model proposed, if so, why was this not progressed. The option was looked at in 2015/16, along with a number of options put forward under formal consultation. The preferred options were to either establish a new dual stream school or to establish a new Welsh Medium school in Builth with English medium to continue in Llandrindod. The preferred option put before Cabinet in the Full Business Case in 2016 was a new dual stream school in Builth. The benefit of option five was of a new Welsh medium school in Builth which scored highly but was rejected at the time. Clarification on the official Welsh Government terminology for language categories was sought. The new Welsh language categories or the Welsh Government's definitions of Welsh language categories for secondaries, in particular, are English medium, Welsh medium or dual language rather than dual stream. Sections 2.20 and 2.21 state that Mid Powys is the only area where pupils were unable to access designated Welsh secondary provision. However, the paper excluded the catchment area for Brecon. The distance between Brecon to Talybont-on-Usk is 26.4 miles, and Brecon to Builth Wells is 16.8 miles. The Welsh-medium curriculum offered in Brecon, was minimal, and consisted of only three subjects, with 31 pupils across five-year groups in the secondary sector. The paper did not include the catchment area for Ysgol y Bannau, if included it would increase the pupil cohort. There was no strategic view in this paper. We should not be looking at the easiest route. Brecon to Merthyr Tydfil and Brecon to Abergavenny are both further away than Brecon to Builth Wells. Logically, it would seem that the current catchment school for the Gwernyfed area should be considered. Therefore, Builth Wells would serve pupils from the English-medium terms in Llandrindod Wells, Builth Wells, John Beddoes, Gwernyfed, and Brecon High School catchment areas. Struggles in this wider catchment area made it the easiest route to get it established. The proposal, based on the catchment area, did not preclude parents from elsewhere applying for Welsh-medium education in Builth. Once established, the catchment could have been extended. Strategically, there were developments across the border regarding where a new Welsh-medium secondary provider could be established. Once established, given Builth was viewed as the proposed location, further areas could be added to the catchment Chair commented that in previous meetings Scrutiny have requested that catchment maps needed to be addressed so that pathways for pupils were clear. If Cabinet approve the proposal, and move to consultation, catchment maps would be included at that stage, so information would be clear. Clarity sought on further adjustment to the catchment maps prior to consultation If approved by Cabinet, the catchment maps included in the consultation documentation would relate to this proposal and defined catchment area for the new Welsh medium school and the school at Ysgol Calon Cymru site in Llandrindod. Question raised relating to possible gap in the paper, for comment from school staff and the local community on their thoughts of the proposal and the case for change which allowed for plenty of notice for provision of input. The document included leisure provision on both sites and comments regarding Sustainable Powys, seeking clarification on what that meant, could usage figures if provided of both sites, result in both facilities being retained. What was the current feeling about these proposals, was change welcomed, or was there reluctance. Request for information on leisure facilities along with previous school engagement to be included in future school transformation proposals to assist Scrutiny deliberations. If approved consultation would commence with those communities. There had been consultation with those communities, including an informal engagement exercise in August 2021 on the initial plans, though not in the level of detail within the papers. The Chairs and Heads at Builth Primary School and Ysgol Calon Cymru had shared the challenges and questions with them as the proposal has been developed. When transformation proposals were announced the Service understands that the School communities were concerned but if approval were granted, there would be many opportunities for feedback prior to any final decision. The general direction of travel had some support, but the devil was in the detail, especially around the nearly five years of Welsh-medium provision in the Builth area. There had been a variety of responses from the engagement in 2021, covering support, opposition, and everything in between. Regarding leisure, Education Services were mindful of the review, but education was not dependent on the leisure review. From the school's point of view and that of the governing body, they understood the process when proposals were brought forward. The point of consultation was to work with the school and engage with all stakeholders. Approaches to change were done with, not to, the community, through informal and soft engagement. There was no information in relation to community access and space at sites within the documentation The intention was to invest in both campuses, what was not evident yet was that investment a new build or phased development which would be considered when bringing the business case through This was a consultation on the education model, rather than the new build. There were two slightly separate processes that run alongside each other. That work had begun and was being progressed at pace to review the investment required at Llandrindod and Builth. There was no consideration within this proposal to remove anything currently available from the community under the existing arrangement, through investment it was hoped to enhance the community offer. Chair commented that the Committee were aware that any decisions made had to be linked to Sustainable Powys. Officers were congratulated on the proposal for bilingual education in South and Mid Powys, as understood the need to keep Welsh in all schools. Dual streams did not work and did not develop confident Welsh speakers, as GCSE subjects through Welsh and A levels were not offered. For 10-20 years, dual stream schools compromised Welsh-medium education by requiring subjects to be taught in English. The strategy showed where Welsh-medium schools were developing, such as in Ystradgynlais and southeast Monmouthshire, but the Scrutiny Committee was unaware of these plans, which were 10-15 years away. They questioned why English-medium primary schools were being created in Builth Wells and Llanelwedd instead of Welsh-medium schools. There was a lack of explanation and promotion on Welsh medium education, which would result in lost opportunities and pupils exported across the county border with Powys having no control on outcomes. Concern was raised that the duty of developing bilingual children was being exported to other counties, where Powys had no control or influence. Powys retained control of English-medium education, leading to investment which appeared to favour English-medium education, as seen in dual stream schools. There was a need to serve the Welsh-speaking population in Ystradgynlais and Crickhowell in the southeast. Concerns were also raised of Powys’ lack of involvement at an early stage, despite Welsh Government plans and ideas at a strategic level, to have a stronger influence on progress. The 10-year Welsh and education strategic plans were approved by every local authority and the Welsh government, with regular monitoring and reviews. Additionally, there were nine-year capital investment plans, aligned with the strategic plans to ensure commitments were reflected in local authorities' investment plans. Collaboration extended across local authority boundaries to accommodate the large flow of pupils seeking Welsh-medium education. Three local authorities in South Wales lacked designated Welsh-medium provision, leading to pupils going out of county. A formal working group was established between southeast local authorities and Powys to monitor and develop plans, considering the impacts of decisions. This work progressed rapidly, with commitments to implement new Welsh-medium secondary provision within the nine-year investment period. The Portfolio Holder for a learning Powys commented that the long-term vision extended the school transformation programme initiated by the previous administration, with strong collaborative approaches, which the current administration continued. This included a 13-site provision for secondary education. The Welsh Education Strategic Plan (WESP) reinforced Welsh-medium provision at three sites, and progress was made in this area. The focus for the remainder of the administration was on teaching and learning, addressing significant issues in both English-medium and Welsh-medium education. Esteem reports highlighted the need to revisit Welsh-medium provision in cooperation with Neath Port Talbot Council, particularly in Ystradgynlais. Despite stable provision at Ysgol Cribarth there were no significant increases above the baseline. Preschool provision for Welsh-medium education was lacking in several catchment areas, making it difficult to advance secondary provision. Wave 2 of the administration's plan included catchment reviews to outline the direction of travel over 5 to 10 years. Reviews were completed in Crickhowell and Llanfyllin catchments, with ongoing engagement sessions in John Beddoes and Newtown High School campuses. Discussions with officers aimed to move forward ahead of schedule, considering potential catchment reviews before the 2027 elections. Committee cannot disagree with the Portfolio Holders comment however, the Committee do not see the vision for Welsh Language provision in the southeast of the county and would like to have sight of the Cabinets ambition and ultimate goal for education in Powys. Comments from the Portfolio Holder that Llanfyllin catchment had been completed, were contested. Teaching and learning were regressing under the current Administration and there needed to be a complete refocus on these areas. The County would be exporting the responsibility for Welsh-medium education to other local authorities, making it far more difficult for pupils within the county to receive Welsh-medium education, while clearly investing in English-medium schools. Whilst may disagree with previous comments regarding bilingual education, at least it included some element of Welsh-medium education in all schools. How many high schools would cover all key stages in Powys in the future and what the footprint of Welsh schools would be in 25 years, as it takes that long to develop a holistic approach to education. Over numerous years there had been no progress, despite significant strides made by the previous council, even then pace was challenged. The Portfolio Holder was asked if the proposal would blight future Welsh-medium education in the south of Powys and whether children receiving transport south of Builth to an English-medium school would continue to have transport to an English-medium school in the future, as was understood that the current school transport policy meant all children south of Builth would only have transport to a Welsh-medium school. The transport policy covered areas of primary schools, both Welsh and English medium. Builth Wells County Primary School would be designated as an English medium school within its catchment. One purpose of the change in transport policy was to ensure equity in access to education as Welsh medium schools grew. Under the previous administration, was created a transport policy enabling Welsh medium school leaners to bypass English medium schools for better access. Improvements were made to ensure the policy did not adversely affect English-speaking pupils. The policy facilitated this provision. The provision in the A483 corridor, overlapping Welshpool and Llanfyllin catchments, required investment. Due to the collapse of Dawnus, criteria within the Band of the 21st Century Schools program were not met for additional investment. The new program specified investment timelines in respect of the five cases model. Consequently, both the catchment review and the SOC submitted for Sustainable Communities for Learning aligned with changes in the catchment update. The catchment review set out a process for the future. There were more pupils in the primary sector in the area, including Trefonnen, Builth, and Rhayader, with approximately 280 pupils. This provided a platform for growth, and the project was considered a long-term growth programme. In comparison, pupil numbers at Ysgol y Bannau in Brecon had fallen significantly over the last few years, now below 100. Ysgol y Bannau, a feeder school into the Brecon Welsh stream, attracted pupils from a wide catchment, including parts of Crickhowell, Builth, and Llandrindod catchments. Sennybridge, located further south, had pupils going both ways, some to Ystradlafera and some to Brecon. In terms of pupil numbers available for growth, the Builth area was considered the best. Clarification sought on overlapping catchments and whether children would be transported passed a Welsh medium School to receive education in an English medium school. Ysgol Rhiw Bechan English stream learners would only be transported to Bro Caereinion and refused transport to Newtown High School. This transport issue, whilst understood the reasoning, made it very difficult for parents. There had been a whole Council decision to have a working group to look at the school transport policy to make more flexible to support parental choice which had not been forth coming. Access to Welsh medium education had been made more difficult, with investment towards English medium and exporting Welsh medium learners. The Portfolio Holder replied in the affirmative, in the same way in other areas learners would be transported passed English Medium schools to receive a Welsh medium education, at the Secondary phase where within that catchment from a feeder school. Ysgol Rhiw Bechan are a feeder school to Bro Caereinion. The Transport policy did provide challenge, due to the geographical area and sparse population, it would be impossible to please everyone, however proposal brought forward offer the best opportunities for the majority. The Portfolio Holder for a Greener Powys with oversight of Transport commented that the new Home to School Transport policy review was better in terms of equity, parental understanding and did not take the criticism that was levelled at the meeting, however, would respond to specific points raised outside the meeting. A Welsh medium school had been developed at Bro Caereinion, with significant increases in Welsh medium education across the County, moving at pace to deliver more, with greater access and provision than ever before. Issue raised on the point raised by officers to get Welsh medium site established first, it was more important to get it right this time. Welcomed the Directors comment that proposal and future progress to be undertaken with the community, and the Committee would hold the Service to that pledge. In future could catchment maps involved for locations of schools both current and proposed catchment areas be included in all future documentation on proposals. There were many excellent dual stream primary schools, where parents had placed their children in the Welsh stream, which they may not have if was Welsh medium provision only. However, Welsh medium high school provision was needed. Many children in dual stream primary schools performed exceptionally well and would choose good quality Welsh medium high school provision on the quality of teaching and learning which mattered more than whether the school was dual stream or single stream. All pupils across Wales should have the opportunity for bilingual education, all schools in Wales should be bilingual. Question raised on whether the impacts and knock-on effects on surrounding dual stream schools had been considered. Confidence was sought in the availability on the recruitment and retention of Welsh medium teachers and support staff. Across other areas of the county and country, growth in Welsh medium education was seen where there was a clear pathway from early years through to secondary and post-16 education. This plan aimed to develop that pathway and make it clear for families. Concerns were raised about the impact on existing primary dual stream schools, such as Trefonnen and Rhayader schools. If parents preferred Welsh medium or through schools over dual stream entry, they could apply for a place and go through the transport process, which could impact the size of the Welsh stream in dual stream schools. Conversely, if parents saw good quality progression and offer, the numbers in Welsh streams could also increase. Dual stream schools impacted by this would need to adapt as pupil numbers in streams changed. Efforts were made to build and develop Welsh medium skilled staff, working with teacher training partners to prepare for the future. Existing school staff were engaged, and Welsh language assessments revealed many staff spoke Welsh but did not teach through the medium of Welsh. The National Centre for Learning Welsh provided lessons for staff to upskill and move to teaching through the medium of Welsh, along with sabbaticals and residentials to support existing staff. Recruitment remained a challenge in teaching, not just in the Welsh medium sector, but these efforts aimed to grow and meet future demand. Sennybridge Primary school where over half of the pupils were Welsh medium learners was nearer Ystralafera than Builth, as not in the catchment of Ystralafera would not be in receipt of free transport. These learners would be transitioning to an English Medium rather than Welsh Medium High School as the only route for free school transport was to the High School in Brecon. The proposal presented did not comply with the framework principles of Sustainable Powys. There was potential that the new school might not come to fruition until the mid-2030s. A concern was raised of primary age pupils on the same site as secondary age pupils, which could lead to some children moving to an English medium option. Concerns were also raised of the availability of the curriculum offer and how Welsh medium learners would access subjects only offered in English, The focus needed to remain on the education of the children. There had been no discussion about the site, and copies of the capacity calculations requested the previous week had not been received. Finally, a breakdown of the estimated £64,000 additional transport costs and the £107 million between two sites was requested. Engagement had so far only been with the HS and Builth Primary as the two schools directly affected by the proposal, but all the cluster schools will be stakeholders within the consultation process. Transport for primary pupils from Rhayader to the primary phase of the new Welsh-medium school in Builth would not be eligible according to the current Home to School Transport Policy, because the stream at Rhayader primary school would be defined as their ‘catchment’ school. However, parents could apply for transport if they so wished as per the Policy. As part of the Council’s Sustainable Communities for Learning Strategic Outline Programme approved last summer included an estimate of £107 million for investment in both campuses, with £70 million allocated for a new build in Llandrindod and the rest for remodelling Builth. However, this is a maximum figure. Further work has taken place since the SOP was submitted to consider how Builth campus could be remodelled, and it is estimated that this would be in the region of £5m. Further work would be required to fully understand the capital costs for both campuses and all options would be considered during the business case process. The rate was £55k per £1 million borrowed, and the same percentages were to be used in papers to all Scrutiny Committees. An area of Builth Campus was identified for conversion to accommodate primary learners, with a separate section for early years. Principles of safeguarding and secure environments were applied, ensuring separation between primary and secondary phases. They would have their own external play area, segregated and fenced, and the school day would be managed to ensure access to shared facilities. The all-age model was growing significantly across Wales, offering considerable benefits in terms of access to specialist facilities within the secondary school. The split was notional at that time, with a long way to go to work through options appraised and define the split better through SOC. Construction costs were rising quickly, and the scope and preferred option needed development and costing. The only defined amount within the £107 million was the £5 million for reconfiguring the Builth campus for primary and early years phases. Time scales for the build were reviewed, aiming for achievable yet challenging and ambitious delivery. Good processes were in place to take the project forward confidently and at pace. Dual stream schools had not worked well in secondary education, as were supposed to move along the continuum, with acknowledgement that a dual stream school was difficult manage. There were 98 pupils in Years 7-11 at Ysgol Calon Cymru in the bilingual stream, shared between Builth and Llandrindod. There were 435 pupils on the Builth site, including the Welsh medium (WM), and 330 pupils would need to move to Llandrindod. The majority of Years had space, but it was unclear if the move by 2029 was entirely dependent on the build completion or if they could move prior. There was a question about whether it was realistic to develop the Welsh ethos on the Llandrindod campus within two years. Concerns around the model and capacity were considered, and initial discussions with the school took place. There were questions about space, physical resources, staffing, and movement of staff, which linked to class sizes. While it was not impossible, it was an operational decision requiring close collaboration with the school and support from school improvement advisors, the head teacher, and the senior leadership team to work through the mechanics. Full engagement with the school was necessary to determine what it could look like, as there were many component parts to such a movement. In relation to finance, a new Welsh medium school with a new name raised questions about the current budget situation of Ysgol Calon Cymru, including whether the deficit would move to the Llandrindod campus. This brought concerns for the school going forward, as wiping off a debt was not an attractive proposition from the local authorities' point of view. From the school's perspective, the two sites were given a very unlevel playing field, making it difficult for schools carrying deficits to move forward. The reality was that the majority of those schools were unlikely to pay back the money, making it an unrealistic burden to opt for their change model. Ysgol Calon Cymru would continue to operate on the Llandrindod campus only, while the Welsh School was a new school. The current deficit remained with Ysgol Calon Cymru, as regulations did not allow for writing off or splitting the deficit between two schools unless there was a school closure. Liaison with other authorities and the Welsh government was ongoing to understand how similar situations were handled while remaining within regulations. The difficulties of one school carrying a deficit caused by part of another school setup, were considered. Ysgol Calon Cymru underwent a new school management change process to improve teaching and learning standards, emerging from significant improvement and a massive transformation project. Adherence to financial regulations was necessary, and the future of Ysgol Calon Cymru needed to ensure the best start for improving teaching and learning, making a success of Welsh medium and English medium education for all learners. It was pertinent to raise the issue of deficit budgets and how the authority considered this in the transformation programme. Schools with large deficit budgets struggled to attract leadership and governors, highlighting the importance of giving these schools the best start after a transformation process. All agreed that efforts were required to support and encourage the development of Cylch Meithrin, as this was the way children fed through into Welsh medium education. Brecon High School had been in a deficit since 2007. There was an opportunity to open it as a new school, but that opportunity was missed. Lessons needed to be learned from that experience. Consideration was given to closing Ysgol Calon Cymru in the recommendations, with an explanation on the rules for reducing the number of high schools in the county. The Portfolio Holder had stated it would take years, but a shorter consultation timescale would not extend the timeline for closure. The recommendation to close Ysgol Calon Cymru within the proposal would invoke the same process and timescale. A recommendation was in response to what was in the code.
Committee discussed and confirmed the following recommendations on the Ysgol Calon Cymru proposal paper: · Representation to be made to Welsh Government for additional funding to support WG target of Welsh Speakers by 2050. · Representation to be made to the Welsh Government for clearer definitions Welsh Medium Education to Bilingual Outcome education, to enable parents to make informed decisions. · Powys County Council to provide more proactive public communication for parents on bilingual education. · Long-term vision to be provided on all transformation programmes. · The concern remains in respect of the timeline on this transformation programme, and whether it was achievable. · Catchment maps to be provided within papers to Scrutiny and public consultations of current and proposed maps. · School transport remains a concern as conflicting information provided to different areas of Powys. · To consider equity for all schools, regardless of site, under the financial regulations following Transformation programmes. · Recruitment and retention plans must be included in the information provided to Scrutiny on all transformation projects, in particular for Welsh Medium/ bilingual outcome Education. · Welsh Government Working Group on Cross County Education information to be provided to Scrutiny, as concern heightened that Welsh medium Education would be undertaken outside of Powys for Powys residing learners.
Work programme was noted with comments made for additional items to be scheduled as follows: · School visit – Robert Owen · Briefing paper along the varying issues for border schools · School Funding Formula · De-Brief on the Estyn Report possibly to Full Council once report was published · Education Integrated Business Plan · Pupil Attendance & Exclusion data · Youth Voice Youth Strategy
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