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There is no summary of this meeting yet. One is written once the council publishes the minutes. The agenda and papers are below.
Apologies received from committee members, County Councillors Gareth Ratcliffe and Chris Walsh for having to leave the meeting early. County Councillors Sandra Davies, Matthew Dorrance. Apologies for having to leave early received from County Councillor David Thomas. Officers John Forsey, Daniel Burgess. Apologies for lateness received from Jane Thomas. Audit Wales Officers Emma Woodcock, Euros Lake and Derwyn Owen.
There were no declarations of interest from Members relating to items for consideration on the agenda.
No issues were raised regarding the minutes of the previous meeting held on the 20th of November 2024 and the Committee resolved to authorise the Chair to sign the minutes as a true reflection of the meeting.
Background provided by Gareth Jones – Audit Wales. • The National Fraud Initiative was a biannual UK wide counter fraud exercise run by the Cabinet Office. Using computerised techniques to compare information held by different public bodies that may suggest the existence of fraud or error. • Data matches were then sent to participating bodies such as Powys County Council for assessment and review. • Based on the assessment review, audited bodies recorded their outcomes which were compiled into the National Report. • Published in October 2024, the National Report could be summarised as follows: • In the 2022-23 round, £7.1million worth of outcomes were identified across the public sector in Wales. • Council specific information would only be available to the authority’s National Fraud Initiative (NFI) Key Contact and Governance & Audit Committee. • Once the bodies had identified those outcomes appropriate steps could be taken to recover money. • Participating in the NFI could improve systems of internal control and the NFI results could highlight areas for other improvements. • Following the report an NFI Self-Assessment Checklist had been produced, which Powys County Council was in the process of completing and would bring to a future meeting of the Governance & Audit Committee. Issues Raised by the Committee: Responses Received: Committee Members highlighted a typing error on page 2 of the report. This was acknowledged and a correction would be made. Was the cost of producing this report greater than savings achieved? Officer to provide an answer following the meeting. ACTION Clarity was sought regarding whether the savings achieved would be delivered back to Powys County Council. Money that had been paid out by Powys County Council, would be returned to Powys County Council. How did the size of Powys’s anti-fraud team compare to other Councils? Officer to provide an answer following the meeting. ACTION How could the topics raised at point 48 of this report become embedded into the authority’s control framework? The report identified potential fraud for audited bodies to investigate. Ian Halstead was the key contact for the Fraud Initiative in Powys. It was the role of SWAP to ensure information was processed correctly. Current process was for areas of potential fraud to be allocated to their respective service area for investigation. The service was expected to take on board the control issue or SWAP would carry out internal audit work to support the delivery of those controls. The Head of Finance added that the responsibility of fraud control was across the Council. The Lead Fraud Investigator offered assurance that the service areas referred concerns of fraud to the Fraud Investigation Team.
The background and discussion of this report was presented alongside the National Financial Sustainability of Local Government Report.
Background for both of these reports was provided by Gareth Jones – Audit Wales • The Auditor General took it as his role to highlight the risks and cumulative impact of financial restraint on local government and that there could not be an assumption that the future of the sector was sustainable. • The fact that no section 114 reports had been submitted in Wales was a testament of the commitment from officers, elected members, members of government committees. However, it was acknowledged that the position was fragile and sensitive to competing complex factors that affected the finances of local government. • Some councils were better placed than others to weather financial challenges but given the scale of the funding gaps projected for local government in the coming years, all councils would need to keep up or increase the pace of change to meet the urgency and scale of the challenge and the Welsh Government would need to support the sector in meeting that challenge. • All councils across Wales had arrangements to understand their short and medium-term financial positions but few councils had comprehensive understanding of how to close their projected budget gaps beyond the next two years. • There was a continual reliance on annual savings rather than on longer term transformation plans. This could mean a reliance on short term savings and or short-term use of reserves. • Overall councils had generally appropriate financial reporting arrangements for the short and medium term but assessing and monitoring the impact of their financial decisions was a weakness across Wales. • There were concerns that national issues or processes could make financial planning more difficult, including: • The funding formula used to distribute Welsh Government funding to local government. • The timing of local government funding settlements in the lack of multi-year settlements that were present in others spending areas. • Additional responsibilities being placed on councils without funding being made available. • The Auditor General did not make any specific recommendations to Local Councils or Welsh Government because recommendations to local councils had been made in each of the local reports. • Audit Wales did not undertake an audit of an assessment of the Welsh Government's arrangements as part of this report. • The key message was that the financial position of local government was unsustainable over the medium term unless action was taken, and this had been taken seriously by those across the sector. Welsh Government, local councils and those committed to the sector would need to charter a path to a sustainable future. Issues Raised by the Committee: Responses Received: The Cabinet Member for Finance and Corporate Transformation asked why no recommendations had been built into the report. Without conducting audit work recommendations could not be made to an audited body, including the Welsh Government. Had Audit Wales done any work on the sustainability of the structures within which local authorities were working? No specific work had been undertaken around the sustainability of local government structures. The Cabinet Leader added that while assessing the sustainability of local government was important, it must be viewed within the broader context of public services funding. The experience of local authorities in England showed that structural changes alone, did not address funding issues. Central government often focused on structural changes without increasing the overall funding, which did not solve the underlying problems. Reports should be framed within the wider public sector context to be fully understood. There was insufficient funding within the UK public sector to deliver the desired quality and standard of services. Until this was recognised and addressed, budget cuts would continue. Finance was one dimension of the statutory role of local authorities, their role also included economic, social, cultural, and environmental dimensions. Officers were reminded that as local authorities confronted these challenges through initiatives like Sustainable Powys, all their duties must be met. The challenges that the local authority had in attempting to plan for the longer term whilst in receipt of single annual budgets was underlined and it was highlighted how this cut across the sustainable development principles. The Chief Executive added that in 2005/6 to 2023, local government received an 11% real term increase, in comparison the NHS grew by 60%. For many of the challenges in the Health Sector to be addressed, local authorities had to work in tandem with the NHS. Powys County Council had taken £136million from the base budget over the last 10 years, and going forward difficult decisions had to be made. Engaging with Sustainable Powys offered benefits from a financial, environmental and social perspective. The committee was reminded that quarterly performance reporting used a results-based accountability framework which presented broader benefits alongside financial. The Fostering Initiative and its associated Business Case, developed from the "Invest to Save" program under Sustainable Powys, stemmed from the "Closer to Home" strategy. This approach was anticipated to enhance individual outcomes, increase network sustainability, and reduce delivery costs. The financial savings came second to the quality care provided to young people in Powys. Secondly, the focus of the Waste Strategy was around driving up standards, the benefits of which would be environmental and financial. Disappointment was shared regarding the lack of detailed comparisons between Councils and balance sheet analysis in this report. The report was around arrangements rather than data points. Such ratios were presented in the National Financial Sustainability Data Tool, and those indicators were in the public domain. Local authorities could not be viewed in isolation. Health Boards and partner organisations faced significant challenges. If everything changed simultaneously, long-term planning would be difficult as immediate issues were addressed. Had this been considered in Audit Wales’s future planning? The Auditor General published ‘From Firefighting to Fireproofing: The Challenge for Welsh Public Services’ in 2024, which addressed the issues facing public bodies. The committee queried whether there was merit in undertaking a Self-Assessment of Powys’s resilience and readiness against the criteria in the All-Wales Report, perhaps around pages 105, the Audit Scotland Criteria. The Committee would be interested in seeing the development of a Value for Money Strategy in the Council. The Head of Finance answered that the Council completed a Financial Resilience Assessment, which picked up ratio levels, internal comparison around resilience and changing trend over time. The National Financial Sustainability of Local Government Report could be used to develop the Financial Resilience Assessment.
The Senior Investigator provided a background to the report. • On page 237, a table had been added to show more information around the proactive error and review work regarding council tax and business rates. • The NFI report picked up on council tax single person discount, however the service looked at all discounts. Due to being biennial the NFI report did not cover all the elements covered by the proactive work of the service. • Not all cases highlighted to the service were fraud cases. The vast majority were error cases. • No figures were carried across from year to year. All figures were in-year only. • An additional box demonstrated the work of the service that spanned out of the council. • £50k gained for the public purse was part of joint working with other organisations such as the Department of Work and Pensions (DWP) and was in addition to the detailed total accrued figures this financial year so far. • The service was keen to maintain working with the DWP for as long as there was a risk to public funds. • The service attended forums to understand the work of other councils and financial institutions to improve proactive anti-fraud and error work. Issues Raised by the Committee: Responses Received: It was suggested that in the table on page 236, the wording ‘Current (fraud cases ongoing)’ could be replaced with ‘potential fraud cases referred to us.’ This was acknowledged. Was there a timeframe to complete the 6 employee cases listed on page 236? Timescales were based on the individual work of each case and each case had to be thoroughly investigated following all lines of enquiry to seek evidence that supported or detracted from any offences being committed. Evidence and information may have needed to be sought from other service areas or organisations and CAFT must follow all reasonable lines of enquiry, relevant to the allegation(s) or even additional subsequent concerns that may be raised via the investigation itself. When was the policy relating to transport/ mileage claims last reviewed? The Head of People answered that this policy was being reviewed and due for completion by June 2025. Did the service have structures and processes in place for the renewal of policies? Yes, adequate structures and processes were in place. Did the service hold accountability to individuals who misinterpreted policies? The CAFT team questioned individuals to ensure understanding and evidence gained during investigations may also assist with this. If the service had sufficient evidence to bring a case to a formal interview under caution, the individual would have opportunity to explain themselves. There would be merit in conducting a wider audit of payroll, overpayment, sickness and travel. SWAP conducted continuous audit work on payroll, overtime and expenses as these areas were considered at high risk of fraud. CAFT and SWAP continued to work together where fraud risk was identified.
Background provided by the Head of Planning and Regulatory Services. • Responding to urgent incidents outside of normal office hours was essential to protect public health. • To test arrangements, the Food Standards Agency made attempts to make telephone contact with all local authorities in relation to a serious food hygiene instance as outlined in the report. • Auditors were able to confirm that Powys County Council had effective arrangements in place to deal with emergency outside out of hours contact. There were no comments or issues raised by the committee.
Background was provided by the Head of Business Intelligence and Governance. • As part of the annual corporate self-assessment process the authority had to identify actions to increase the extent to which performance requirements would be met. • The Council had evidence that functions were exercised effectively, resources were used economically, and effective governance was in place. • The Corporate Self-Assessment from 2023-24 was approved by Cabinet in July 2024. • This item was intended to provide the committee with a detailed progress update against each of the 10 Improvement Actions provided on pages 257 – 275. Issues Raised by the Committee: Responses Received: When would the committee see the detailed plans within Sustainable Powys assured to them in July 2024? The Chief Executive explained that the Sustainable Powys Reports were being presented to each of their relevant scrutiny committees and the reports were public and accessible. The Committee requested to have a sense of the whole Sustainable Powys programme, how it fit together and the financial strategy underpinning the programme of work, including risks, timescales, benefits, impact and key milestones. The Chief Executive offered a confidential briefing with the committee to share that information. ACTION The Director of Corporate Services and Section 151 Officer added that Sustainable Powys was a programme of work spanning multiple years. The committee would see it reported through corporate plans, the medium-term financial plan, and budget plans over the next 5-10 years. Assurance was requested that the percentage of VAWDASV training in schools was increasing. The Service Manager for Education Support Services answered that Powys had the highest compliance rate in the region out of the 4 areas for the Ask and Act Group 2 training. Assurance was given that the service was aware that this was an area that needed to be improved at pace. To increase the rate for Group 2 VAWDASV delivery, training delivery was introduced within the education safeguarding team. A school training matrix had also been issued which identified mandatory and essential training roles per school role. From January 2025 onwards, proof of completion of Group 1 training would be required before individuals could take part in group 2 training. Anyone not compliant with Group 1 training would be required to undertake this training as matter of urgency. VAWDASV Governor Training Sessions had been developed and would be trialled with the Governor Safeguarding Network in February 2025. The Safeguarding Governor role descriptor was reviewed and now included significantly increased reference to VAWDASV training and framework. The Director of Social Services and Wellbeing added that this was a priority area for the Corporate Safeguarding Board. Did service areas have a compliance register for safeguarding for volunteers? What was the process and system behind that? The Director of Social Services and Wellbeing answered that this had been picked up by the Corporate Safeguarding Board as an area of priority. Work had begun to understand how the Board could oversee this. A more intense bilateral relationship with the Bannau Brycheiniog National Park was needed to deliver some Sustainable Powys objectives, particularly around redesigning place-based planning. The Portfolio Holder for a Connected Powys agreed and added the authority was focusing on Sustainable Powys through co-production, co-design, and collaboration with statutory bodies, partners, and town and community councils with the goal to reshape localities and strengthen community resilience, filling gaps in service provision. Powys County Council aimed to support communities in doing things for themselves, which would help achieve savings. Precise timelines were challenging, but it was crucial to ensure effective engagement and inform communities for decision-making. The Cabinet Member for a Connected Powys was working closely with The Director of Economic Development & Growth and the Head of Business Intelligence and Governance in taking on place-making responsibilities to support the relevant Portfolio Holder in delivering Sustainable Powys initiatives. Spring meetings had been planned to re-engage with communities. This continuous iteration would be essential for achieving desired outcomes and addressing challenges.
Background Provided by the Head of Planning & Regulatory Services. • This risk was historically held with the Education Service but transferred over to Strategic Property with the introduction of the corporate landlord. • The service was reviewing the name of the risk to ensure that it was clear. • A presentation was provided to the committee demonstrating potential consequences, controls, actions and governance. • The Head of Transforming Education added that risks were managed in collaboration with property, education, catering, and health and safety services. • Governance around the management of this risk had improved and an Education Health & Safety Forum was being established that would feed into the Corporate Health & Safety Forum. • The condition of school buildings affected operation, pupils' education and staff well-being. The service was working hard to address this. • Preventative investment was crucial to mitigate issues. There was a risk to children's education if schools needed to be relocated. Non-property-related risks also affected education, which were key factors in this context. Issues Raised by the Committee: Responses Received: Did the proposed budget enable the authority to catch up on the backlog of maintenance required in the school estate? Improvements were being made where possible, but the budget required to catch up with the maintenance backlog on the school estate would be vast and was currently unavailable. The Head of Corporate Transformation added that resources were extremely challenged and the impact on the revenue budget could not be understated both in terms of meeting ongoing repair maintenance costs and the capital investment needed. Hence why a review of the authority’s estate was fundamental and the release of capital receipts from reducing owned assets would enable Powys County Council to support statutory obligations. Would the physical environment of schools be picked up through Estyn Inspections and could this be a negative factor in a review? The Head of Transforming Education answered that yes, Estyn was beginning to highlight more issues relating to school premises and site safeguarding. The Education service was taking a proactive approach to this and working collaboratively to ensure sites were fully safeguarded.
Background provided by the Chief Officer - Place and the Strategic Programme Manager Covid-19Test Trace Protect. • The committee was presented with a slideshow which demonstrated background, completed actions, controls in place and future work. Issues Raised by the Committee: Responses Received: Assurance was sought that a Risk Management Plan was established for the Powys County Council staff posts within the Joint Health Protection Team, given that these posts lacked a base budget and were funded by the Welsh Government. This was a risk on the Planning and Regulatory Services Risk Register. Were any key lessons learned from the COVID-19 pandemic which had been built into the authority’s planning and contingency planning? The collaborative working of residents, communities, volunteers and organisations was key to the work carried out during the COVID Pandemic. The committee was pleased to see that prevention was a focus for the service. What communication with Powys County Council staff had been carried out to support the uptake of vaccination programs? Corporate Communication was delivered to all staff in December 2024 and January 2025 regarding vaccination options available and winter respiratory infections respectively. How would Powys be governed if all county councillors became ill and were unable to work simultaneously? The Chief Officer of Place answered that Directors communicated with Portfolio Holders regularly and assurance was given a system was in place for this to be flagged up at a political level. The Portfolio Holder for a Safer Powys added that monthly briefings were held with the Strategic Programme Manager Covid-19Test Trace Protect and they were informed of impending risks. It was agreed that this would be left with the Chief Officer of Place, The Cabinet Member for a Safer Powys and The Head of Legal to provide a further answer. ACTION The committee noted that Powys had played a leading role among local authorities during the pandemic by utilising technology to maintain communication and operations.
Internal Audit Working Group • January 2025 meeting was postponed and moved to the beginning of February. • The work of the group included: • Examining aged recommendations not discharged, • Considering work on detailed limited reports that the Governance & Audit committee remitted to the working group for more detailed consideration, • Discussing how to have earlier site of Audit remits prior to their starting, • Looking to have a slight change of the terms of reference, • Understanding the risks and controls around Purchase and Lodge Cards. Whistle Blowing Working Group • Meeting planned early Feb 2025, • Finalising outstanding points around the template letters and communications, • If agreed, a report would be brought to the next meeting of the Governance & Audit Committee for review and approval. ERC HoWPS Working Group • The working group had completed its initial objectives. • An ongoing need had been identified to address staff concerns around housing work. • The working group were seeking approval from the ERC Committee to establish a dedicated subgroup focused on housing repair issues. • One critical issue identified by the HoWPS working group was the ongoing IT problems experienced by staff using the work pads on site. A new IT system should be operational by September 2025 with an internal deadline set for the 31st of October.
• Two meetings were planned for March 2025 due to the Q3 risk management report timing. • Annual approval of internal audit plan planned for the 5th of March. The Assistant Director of SWAP was asked to canvas members for their priorities for 2025-25 internal audit work prior to completion and consideration in March. • Value for Money Report to be added to the Forward Work Programme for a few months’ time– ACTION • Audit of Sustainable Powys Approach on FWP for the 5th of March. This may come to the committee on the 27th of March.
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