Loading
The decisions as the council's minutes record them. A plain-language summary follows once it has been written.
RESOLVED to exclude the public for the following item of business on the grounds that there would be disclosure to them of exempt information under category 3 of The Local Authorities (Access to Information) (Variation) (Wales) Order 2007). The Monitoring Officer has determined that category 3 of the Access to Information Procedure Rules applies to the following item. His view on the public interest test (having taken account of the provisions of Rule 14.8 of the Council's Access to Information Rules) was that to make this information public would disclose information relating to the financial or business affairs of any particular person (including the authority holding that information). These factors in his view outweigh the public interest in disclosing this information. Members are asked to consider these factors when determining the public interest test, which they must decide when considering excluding the public from this part of the meeting. Proposed by Cllr Lucy Roberts and seconded by Cllr Bryn Davies.
There were no apologies for absence. Noted that Cllrs Carol and Chloe had to leave prior to the meetings conclusion due to other commitments.
RESOLVED that County Councillor Lucy Roberts be elected Vice-Chair for the ensuing year. (Proposed by Cllr Carol Robinson and Seconded by Cllr Aled Davies.)
There were no declarations of interest from Members relating to items for consideration on the agenda.
The Committee did not receive any disclosures of prohibited party whips which a Member has been given in relation to the meeting in accordance with Section 78(3) of the Local Government Measure 2011.
· Minutes of the 23rd April 2024 The minutes were agreed by Committee Members present as a true and accurate reflection of the meeting and ratified accordingly by the Chair.
Presentation shared by Lynsey McCrohan. Points raised by the Panel: Responses received from Officers or Cabinet Members. Committee expressed their thanks to Officers for their dedication and enthusiasm in this area of the curriculum. Members of the Committee offered various contacts within Powys to assist the programme. Officers will be in touch for contact details. The Committee members continued to see the benefits and recognised the success of the Music Plan to all learners across Powys and re-iterated the recommendation made last year to Cabinet for the Music Plan to be reviewed through Sustainable Powys, and funded within the mainstream budget rather than grants, and for discussions on funding to be held with Welsh Government.
Committee discussed that the following items be considered for the Forward Work Programme: Schools Budgets Quarterly Reviews on Delegated and Non-Delegated. Working Group on School’s Healthy Eating / Exercise Programme in context of the Curriculum, site visits to be included. Welsh Language Bill – Trochi Working Group Estyn updates with timely slots for any Schools Causing Concern following the change in reporting structure following ERW’s cessation to operate. Schools Social Media policy Transport policy Other Policies / Guidance Documents for Schools.
Background from the Portfolio Holder: · Reports shared detailed the outturn position of the last financial year and the current position of school budgets for the current financial year. · The report outlines the overarching position of the Authority and refers to individual schools where there are concerns being expressed via Recovery Plans. · The later confidential session will give a more detailed view of the financial details of these schools, which was the reason for requesting an exemption. Presentation provided by Finance Officers. · A slight improvement had been recorded on the cumulative reserves as at 31.03.2024, which were £891k for schools delegated across individual schools, compared to the projected surplus balance at May 2023, at the start of the financial year, of £612k. · Actual draw on reserves was £5.8m, resulting in a significant depletion of reserves in the 2023/24 financial year. · The number of schools holding a surplus position at 31.03.2024 was 68 with a £6.5m surplus compared to 77 schools in last year’s report, with a £10.3m surplus. · There has been a management down of reserves and surplus balances from the start of the financial year to the end. · In terms of cumulative deficits across schools there was an increase in the combined cumulative deficit to £5.7m in relation to 20 schools at the 31st March 2024 compared to last year’s £3.7m based on 11 schools. · The 2024/25 budgets received from schools have been ratified by Governing Bodies and estimated based on current staffing structure and draft funding estimates for 2025/26 and 2026/27, based on pupil number projections received from schools. · Schools were requested to submit budget plans by the 1st May 2024. These have been assessed, with requests for submission of recovery plans dependent on the financial situation of individual schools. · Cabinet and the Council set out an increase to the Schools Delegated budget of an initial £3.6m, subsequently increased to £4.2m by the passporting of additional funding from Welsh Government. · Previous 2025/26 and 2026/27 funding estimates were based on assumptions of fully funded pay and prices pressures, those years are now based on cash flat based on the change in financial climate and financial challenges being faced. These estimates are included in Appendix A in individual school balances · The funding estimates built into Appendix A mean that without any further action in this financial year, schools intend to spend £3.33m more than resources available, leaving an estimated £2.4m deficit estimated at 31st March 2025. · 63 schools were budgeted to have a cumulative position at 31st March 2025 which would meet the criteria to be approved under the scheme, and comparable to last year's position. · Main focus would be on those 23 schools forecasted to have a cumulative deficit position as at 31st March 2025. · Of those 23 schools 3 have a licensed budget i.e., a plan to pay back any deficit they have in 2024/25. · The remaining 20 schools have been requested to provide recovery plans by the 12th July 2024, with one school failing to provide a ratified budget submission on time, however this has received subsequently. · Work would continue with schools that were forecasted cumulative deficits in 25/26, with recovery plans requested prior to the summer break. · Those schools projecting cumulative deficits for 26/27, recovery plans have been requested by 30th September 2024 to allow for lead in time due to the crossover of financial and academic years. Points raised by the Panel: Responses received from Officers or Cabinet Members. Work continued to be undertaken by Finance Officers to assist schools to attain a balanced budget, were junctures missed for earlier investment intervention, or had the point been reached where there was simply insufficient funding available for schools to project balanced budgets. There were several reasons for schools to have reached noted positions, which was why there was a 3-pronged approach, support from the Finance Team, School Improvement Teams and the continued approach to improve financial management within schools to mitigate deficits. The new school budget software would allow business managers, finance staff to spend less time on manual spreadsheets and more time concentrating on forecasting and working on budget plans. It was difficult for schools to forecast what’s coming whether an increase or decrease, it was not due to Head Teachers or Governing Bodies not being capable but due to the changing goalposts. In a small school one element of change i.e., a member of staff away due to ill health or a building maintenance issue causing unexpected challenge. The same can be said of the fluctuating pupil numbers. The school noted above that had not submitted a ratified budget by the 12th July, indication sought of what the cumulative deficit position was at 31st March 2024. This would need to be discussed in the confidential session of this meeting. The pupil numbers for 2024/25 were noted in Appendix A, it would be helpful, as the outcome figures are based on Jan 2023, if table could also note the pupils numbers for the previous year and the projected next 2 years. These improvements requested could be considered as part of next set of reports brought to Scrutiny Committee. Would it be possible to have the balance brought forward noted on the table per school This would be noted moving forward. Was it possible moving forward to report the impact of the new school funding formula for individual schools for the current and subsequent 2 years. Work continued with schools on pupil number projections, in line with the delegated budget and the impacts of the school funding formula. Schools were dealing with a 50% introduction of the new formula in 2024/25 and 100% for 2025/26. To allow for increased monitoring of school budgetary positions, reports to be brought quarterly to the Committee. Service in agreement for more regularly quarterly Committee oversight to be added to the Forward Work Programme. The work undertaken by the Finance Team did not go unnoticed by Members of the Committee, however, schools were raising that there were huge deficits, and they were struggling. There were no more easy wins to offset the budget, the options that remained were the curriculum or staff reductions. The figures were stark £2.36m at the end of this financial year, £7.58m by March 2026, and £15.7m by March 2027. Drastic or radical action was required Clarity requested on the figures provided in 2.21 in relation to the Delegated Budget spend and the base budget. Was the difference Post 16 spend plus a few grants or were the figures inclusive of the use of reserves. There was use of an interesting phrase “managing down surpluses,” whilst possibly true, may not be appropriate, with schools in significant deficit and going further into deficit. Throughout discussions we must not lose sight of the impact on pupils education, nor the teachers who were possibly working outside their speciality, particularly within the Secondary Sector. Along with the request for pupil number it would be good to have the numbers of staff employed within each school from the office staff through to Headteacher, to understand employment trends. The £87m base budget for this current financial year what was the expected growth. The use of certain grants could limit Powys’ ability to change and vary delivery in a more efficient way. The £91.3m in Section 2.1 was the Gross Delegated amount to individual school budgets delegated via the funding formula for 2023-24. The £84m base budget was the Net amount. Income from Welsh Government for Post 16 and the £2.5m Foundation phase grant in 23/24 netted off the gross amount provided to schools. The gross amount of £91.3m was delivered to schools via the funding formula and includes both the Post 16 and Foundation allocation, the actual Net Delegated budget held by the Authority includes income from WG for those items. The Finance Resource Model 23/24 to 24/25 showed the Net Delegated budget reported an increase from £83.8m to £87.4m, this was £88m after the additional monies was received from WG . What schools received was higher as the gross amount includes the Post 16 allocation. Items such as recharges would be held in the £88m, with the majority of the difference from the gross amount given to schools and the budget position reported in budget papers was income to offset those allocations for 2024/25. Expected to be Gross £91.8m Members would have to appreciate that the Foundation Phase allocation of £2.5m was no longer in the funding formula as WG provided that allocation to individual schools via a grant allocation run through a national formula, resulting in the allocations via the formula being reduced as schools were receiving this directly in their grant allocations from WG (Schools standards grant). WG have rationalised 2 grants; the Education Improvement and the Accelerated Learning grants into the School Standards grant. Confirmation requested that PCC was compliant to CiPFA finance regulation with regard to the level of deficits. The comment referencing CiPFA guidance and compliance, in response there was nothing within the guidance in respect of schools in deficit, and would discuss further, outside of this forum, with the Councillor concerned. There was a level of concern in terms of schools in deficit and the level of deficit going forward. The financial projections, or the outlook for the Council was stark, however the whole council would have to consider how to bridge the gap,considering how services were provided and may need to be delivered in a different way. Would the Schools budget become a strategic risk A Key Strategic Risk was the ability to deliver an overall affordable managed budget, not only next year but through the following 4-5 years in the Medium-Term Financial Strategy (MTFS). The Portfolio Holder for a Learning Powys noted that there was a comprehensive spending review due in the Autumn which would provide clearer direction on the WG budgets over the next 3 years, which was why there is such a challenging financial position. The Portfolio Holder for Finance and Corporate Transformation commented that prior to the pandemic, significant grants from WG to support at that time, allowed for a £8m surplus reserves position which assisted with the ensuing high energy costs and inflation rates. Projections over the next few years are based on a flat settlement, if there was an improved position there could be leeway with regard schools budget in particular, or indeed the Council budget. It was appreciated that alarm bells were ringing on paper, the projections for the Council as a whole was a possibly £18m in next year’s budget up to anything from £41m to £71m in the next 4 years. Whilst the Council has to consider the impact on education, it must also consider the impact on other service areas. The Director of Education added that all present were aware that schools were in a challenging position, with the projected settlement estimated at cash flat and having to negotiate the rising costs pay awards. The work the Teams Around the Schools required referencing as assisted and continue to assist schools to be as efficient as possible and understand why there was overspending. The Team was led by a Head teacher who was not only skilled in financial management but also in school improvement enabling the gathering of more evidence around reasons schools had not been able to balance their budgets in the past. Was there any correlation carried out on the levels of teaching expected of a Head Teacher and how that impacts on the financial state of a school. Was there any kind of expectation placed on schools for how much time a head teacher should teach, were there plans to standardise this across Powys and would this indicate which schools were viable moving forward. Delegated budget is just that delegated. There was not a definition on what a school can or cannot do this was very much the decision of the Head Teacher and the Governing Body. Some Headteacher across all sectors wish to teach to share expertise and use their skill set, and budget could be used elsewhere i.e., an extra administrative member of staff to support. Other Head Teachers or Leadership teams choose to employ either teacher or a HLTA to teach, to increase income by coaching and mentoring other Head Teachers or through other external work. It would appear that the larger schools struggled more than smaller schools with Headteachers teaching time. How has the impact on children particularly those with ALN, given the new ALNET Act requirements been financially monitored. Chair commented that this point was certainly recognised although felt there would not be an answer as the situation was not going to improve at this moment in time. The Foundation Phase money it was noted earlier was now via a WG grant and a National formula, was Powys receiving more or less this way. What were the schools budget positions across Wales Overall Education Improvement grant and accelerated learning has not reduced. Would it be beneficial for a Member development session on understanding what other monies come into schools. Governor training on the formula had taken place with one school, and further alternative training was being reviewed to provide out to all schools to support financial management. All agree that the Authority and Schools are in extremely difficult and challenging times with no solutions forthcoming. The concern has to be the outcomes for our learners. It is acknowledged that there was an increase in pupils with ALN and pupils presenting more challenging behaviours that required further support. Schools only option to address budget issues was staffing resource, with added complexity that budgets could be blown if projected pupil numbers are not actual. All LA’s are grappling with the financial position currently It was difficult to estimate grants .funding formula would enter an evaluation period, schools are also trying to manage the change in formula as well as the estimated funding position for future years. There is movement in school budgets in respect of savings being put forward, but we have to assess the impact on learners. The Schools Transformation programme and work through the Sustainable Powys programme underpinned the need for change. The key part of the strategy was to improve learner entitlement and experience. For the Welsh medium equity in learner entitlement a solution would be for central contracts, with staff shared between schools, could Powys create central contracts to assist with these issues.
Decision as recorded
RESOLVED to exclude the public for the following item of business on the grounds that there would be disclosure to them of exempt information under category 3 of The Local Authorities (Access to Information) (Variation) (Wales) Order 2007). The Monitoring Officer has determined that category 3 of the Access to Information Procedure Rules applies to the following item. His view on the public interest test (having taken account of the provisions of Rule 14.8 of the Council's Access to Information Rules) was that to make this information public would disclose information relating to the financial or business affairs of any particular person (including the authority holding that information). These factors in his view outweigh the public interest in disclosing this information. Members are asked to consider these factors when determining the public interest test, which they must decide when considering excluding the public from this part of the meeting. Proposed by Cllr Lucy Roberts and seconded by Cllr Bryn Davies.
RESOLVED to exclude the public for the following item of business on the grounds that there would be disclosure to them of exempt information under category 3 of The Local Authorities (Access to Information) (Variation) (Wales) Order 2007). The Monitoring Officer has determined that category 3 of the Access to Information Procedure Rules applies to the following item. His view on the public interest test (having taken account of the provisions of Rule 14.8 of the Council's Access to Information Rules) was that to make this information public would disclose information relating to the financial or business affairs of any particular person (including the authority holding that information). These factors in his view outweigh the public interest in disclosing this information. Members are asked to consider these factors when determining the public interest test, which they must decide when considering excluding the public from this part of the meeting. Proposed by Cllr Lucy Roberts and seconded by Cllr Bryn Davies.
A presentation was shared with the Learning and Skills Scrutiny Committee in relation to the outturn reports 2023-24 and the budget plans 2024-25 of individual schools.
A presentation and verbal update was shared with the Learning and Skills Scrutiny Committee on the Future Schools Swimming Offer.
Councillors must say when they have a personal link to something being discussed, such as a job, a property or a family member. A prejudicial interest is one strong enough that the councillor usually leaves the room and takes no part.
Declarations are read from the minutes once they are published.
Lists the council's current councillors only. Co-opted members, officers and former councillors aren't shown.