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The decisions as the council's minutes record them. A plain-language summary follows once it has been written.
RESOLVED That the Welsh in Education Strategic Plan (WESP) be referred back to Cabinet for them to consider withdrawing their amendment: “That the Director of Education be tasked with exploring how demand for Welsh language can be better captured. In particular this work should focus on disaggregating demand for Welsh Medium Education from other school choice considerations such as perceptions of learning outcomes, facility quality etc.” Reason for referral: The Committee expressed concerns regarding the legalities around the amended recommendation and with the implications that a school survey could have on the Welsh language.
Councillor Huw Murphy Moved that Councillor Jamie Adams be duly elected; Seconded by Councillor Delme Harris. The vote, undertaken by way of a show of hands, was carried. RESOLVED That Councillor Jamie Adams be elected Vice-Chair for the ensuing Municipal Year. As this item was not an educational matter, Mrs Nicola Moore did not vote.
There were no non-committee members wishing to speak.
The following declarations of interest were made in respect of Agenda Item 6 - Welsh in Education Strategic Plan (WESP): Councillor Rhys Jordan declared a personal interest by virtue of the fact that he was a Local Authority appointed Governor for Ysgol Hafan y Môr and he had a child at the school. Councillor Huw Murphy declared a personal interest by virtue of the fact that he was the Chair of Y Fforwm Cymraeg. Councillor Delme Harris declared a personal interest by virtue of the fact that he was a Local Authority appointed Governor for Ysgol Llanychllwydog and Ysgol Ger y Llan. Councillor Maureen Bowen declared a personal interest by virtue of the fact that her partner was a teacher at Henry Tudor School. Mrs Nicola Moore declared a personal interest by virtue of the fact that she was a Parent Governor of Ysgol Eglwyswrw and that she was a member of Y Fforwm Cymraeg.
There were no public submissions.
Decision as recorded
RESOLVED That the Welsh in Education Strategic Plan (WESP) be referred back to Cabinet for them to consider withdrawing their amendment: “That the Director of Education be tasked with exploring how demand for Welsh language can be better captured. In particular this work should focus on disaggregating demand for Welsh Medium Education from other school choice considerations such as perceptions of learning outcomes, facility quality etc.” Reason for referral: The Committee expressed concerns regarding the legalities around the amended recommendation and with the implications that a school survey could have on the Welsh language.
The Committee considered a report by the Director for Education in response to a call-in of a decision made by Cabinet in relation to the Welsh in Education Strategic Plan (WESP). The call-in was signed by Councillors Huw Murphy, Iwan Ward, Jamie Adams and Alun Wills with the support of Councillors Anji Tinley and Elwyn Morse. As the organiser of the call-in, Councillor Murphy highlighted that the Committee needed to carefully consider whether the amendment to the report approved by Cabinet was lawful and irrelevant. The demand for Welsh language education in Wales had increased as more parents were electing to send their children to a Welsh language school. He continued that the Director of Education referenced the increasing number of pupils in English primary schools requesting Welsh Secondary education which led to an increase of children receiving immersive lessons to attain the required standard of Welsh. Councillor Murphy noted that this would provide children with more opportunities, and it was especially beneficial to areas of Pembrokeshire where less Welsh was spoken. The Welsh Education Strategic Plan (WESP) was passed in 2021 with the aim to have 1 million Welsh speakers in Wales by 2050 and Councillor Murphy said that the amendment would put the Council ‘at odds’ with the WESP. In April’s Cabinet meeting, Councillor Murphy stated that Councillor Paul Miller, the relevant Cabinet Member for Place, the Region, Climate Change and Rural Affairs, claimed that Ysgol Caer Elen was popular because it was a new school. Councillor Murphy said that if the proposed survey on Welsh medium schools was carried out then it should be done with English medium schools too, to see why specific language schools were chosen. Regarding this, he noted that a letter had been received from the Welsh Language Commissioner expressing their concerns with the proposed survey. In conclusion, Councillor Murphy expressed his support for the amendment being withdrawn and the original recommendation to be approved only. In response, Councillor Miller, stated that every Cabinet Member had a good understanding of the WESP and expressed a keen interest in the progression of it. He disputed the claim that he had any bias against Welsh medium education and that there was a specific demand for Welsh medium education but instead there was a demand for new schools with good facilities in large catchment areas. Therefore, this was why he was in favour of a school survey being carried out to see what the factors were for parents choosing Welsh medium schools. With regards to Y Fforwm Cymraeg, Councillor Miller said that two opposition elected members sat on it and it was only possible to attend if the attendee spoke Welsh as no translation was available. Therefore, he suggested that it could have been an opportunity to get more people invested in the forum. With regards to Councillor Murphy’s point on pupils transferring to Welsh medium education for secondary school, Councillor Miller said that he was seeking confirmation that education was not hindered through different mediums by the Admissions Policy. Regarding his language at April’s Cabinet meeting, Councillor Miller reiterated that they were comments made by parents in his constituency and he wanted to see if parents specifically wanted a Welsh education or better education. In conclusion, Councillor Miller said that Cabinet would address the demand for Welsh medium education would be managed if it arose and he claimed that Councillor Murphy was created a divide between Welsh and English speakers. Regarding the legalities of the Cabinet resolution, the Head of Law & Governance clarified that the amendment was not illegal but the Council would need to be extremely careful with how information was gathered for it to be lawful and meaningful in line with the WESP. As a point of personal explanation, Councillor Murphy confirmed that he posted about the Extraordinary Schools & Learning OSC meeting on social media anyone passionate about the Welsh language should watch the livestream. As there had been a lack of public engagement historically, he said that this was to encourage public engagement and disputed that this would have caused division between Welsh and English speakers. He concluded that the meeting was taking place because of the amendment approved by Cabinet and Haverfordwest High School was a newer school than Ysgol Caer Elen but Ysgol Caer Elen was exceeding demand. A Motion was Moved by Councillor Huw Murphy to the effect: That the Welsh in Education Strategic Plan (WESP) be referred back to Cabinet for them to consider withdrawing their amendment: “That the Director of Education be tasked with exploring how demand for Welsh language can be better captured. In particular this work should focus on disaggregating demand for Welsh Medium Education from other school choice considerations such as perceptions of learning outcomes, facility quality etc.” Seconded by Councillor Anji Tinley. With regards to schools with better facilities, Councillor Harris highlighted that English medium schools with better facilities were more popular than older build schools. However, more pupils went to Ysgol Casmael than newer primary schools in his division, so this showed that there was a language demand. Councillor David Howlett expressed his support with Welsh language in schools, and he highlighted the successes of Ysgol Bro Preseli despite their building being in disrepair. If Cabinet’s decision was upheld, he questioned how much time and money this would cost officers. In response, the Director of Education stated that they did not know what the cost would be and they did not yet know what the advantages and disadvantages would be in terms of collecting school data. Due to the Admissions Code, he stated that it may not be possible for this data to be collected through admissions and there was no guarantee that parents would provide information. To add to this, the Chief Officer for School Resource & Governance concurred that determining the cost with the survey would be difficult and they would be asking one staff member to collect and collate all the information. He continued that they did not have to ask parents why they chose specific schools at present as places at schools had to be provided if there was space. Extra information would only be requested if a school place was rejected and parent appealed it. In terms of parental choice, Councillor Alec Cormack noted that it was acceptable to not ask parents why they chose specific schools, but the data collected on Welsh and English medium schools would be useful to the Council and the Schools Modernisation Working Group as decisions that could lead to school closures need the most and best data possible. In conclusion, he was in favour of the proposed survey. At the previous Cabinet meeting, Councillor Joshua Beynon concurred that he voted against the amendment as he was concerned about the impact a survey would have. However, he did not feel a survey would hinder the Welsh language at all and that Cabinet strongly supported the Welsh language. He concurred that more data was useful with decision making so he was now in favour of Cabinet’s amendment. When she moved back to Pembrokeshire, Councillor Bowen was informed that Welsh medium schools received more funding than English medium schools. She noted that there was animosity when Ysgol Bro Penfro was built the local English medium school needed funding. She concluded that she was in favour of the school survey as it would ensure that the Council had the systems in place to meet educational demand. In terms of primary schools in Tenby, the Chair stated that he sent his son to the older Welsh medium primary school rather than the newly built English medium school. This was because bilingualism led to more opportunities for children and all parents would have this in minds when sending their children to school. He concurred that there was the perception that Welsh medium schools received more funding, but this was incorrect as funding followed pupils. The Chair concluded that Welsh language in south Pembrokeshire had expanded with the Welsh streams in Golden Grove School and Narberth School. Councillor Delme Harris said that data collection should be applied to all schools and not just Welsh medium schools. With regards to children going to schools, Councillor Tinley noted that a lot of pupils chose where they went to school so they should be included in any school survey work and not just the parents. Regarding the proposed survey, Councillor Adams concurred that any school survey should be done with both Welsh and English medium schools so it would be equal. However, north Pembrokeshire, which had the most Welsh language speakers, had declining population amongst young people and this could lead to Pembrokeshire missing the language demand there under the WESP. He noted that if the survey was agreed to then the Council would not meet the required 2050 deadline set by Welsh Government as part of the WESP. In terms of the Cabinet decision, Councillor Howlett noted that he was in favour of information, but the proposed survey could cost a lost of time and money for the Council. He queried if there was a ‘middle ground’ that both sides would agree to. In response to the comments raised by Councillor Howlett, Councillor Millar stated that the recommendations would not be actioned until the recommendation was approved by the Committee. He concurred that the survey would be useful for the School Modernisation Working Group. In response to a question from Councillor Huw Murphy regarding the Admissions Code, the Director of Education confirmed that the Council was currently compliant with the Admissions Code, and they did not collect data yet. He asked for Welsh Government’s view on collecting additional data through the code and they had not responded yet. Councillor Viv Stoddart concurred with the comments made by Councillor Cormack, and she questioned if extra data was previously collected through the Admissions Code. In response, the Chief Officer for School Resource & Governance confirmed that data was collected previously but legislation had since changed so demand was no longer measured. However, the Council had to extend the Welsh medium provision to meet the WESP. Based on the comments made by the Chief Officer for School Resource & Governance, Councillor Stoddart reiterated that the Cabinet decision should be upheld so the Council could be as informed as possible when making decisions. With regards to the question on the Admissions Code, Councillor Miller queried why it would be impacted. In summarising, Councillor Murphy stated that accepted the amendment would go against the WESP. He and Councillor Miller clashed when Councillor Murphy contacted the Welsh Language Commissioner and the Commissioner highlighted the implications of the proposed school survey. Regarding the Admissions Code, Councillor Murphy emphasised that collected data through it was not allowed. The vote, undertaken by way of a roll-call, was carried. The votes were recorded as follows: For the Motion – CouncillorsDelme Harris, David Howlett, Huw Murphy, Jamie Adams, Anji Tinley, Rhys Jordan, and Mrs Nicola Moore [7] Against the Motion – Councillors Alec Cormack, Nick Neumann, Maureen Bowen, Viv Stoddart and Joshua Beynon [5] There were no abstentions. RESOLVED That the Welsh in Education Strategic Plan (WESP) be referred back to Cabinet for them to consider withdrawing their amendment: “That the Director of Education be tasked with exploring how demand for Welsh language can be better captured. In particular this work should focus on disaggregating demand for Welsh Medium Education from other school choice considerations such as perceptions of learning outcomes, facility quality etc.” Reason for referral: The Committee expressed concerns regarding the legalities around the amended recommendation and with the implications that a school survey could have on the Welsh language.
Councillors must say when they have a personal link to something being discussed, such as a job, a property or a family member. A prejudicial interest is one strong enough that the councillor usually leaves the room and takes no part.
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