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The Children and Young People Scrutiny Committee met on 10 June 2025. It received a briefing on school budgets, showing that 55 schools are expected to be in deficit for the year ending 31 March 2026. It also carried out pre-decision scrutiny of a proposal to federate St Mellons CIW Primary School into The Saints Federation, which Cabinet is due to consider on 19 June 2025. The committee agreed that the Chair would write to the Cabinet Member with its comments, and began planning its work programme for the year.
The Chair advised that Council, at its Annual meeting on 22 May 2025, appointed herself as Chair of the Committee; and the following Committee Members - Cllrs Saleh Ahmed, Boes, Davies, Gunter, Hopkins, Humphreys, Reid-Jones and Singh.
The Chair advised that the Committee’s Terms of Reference were published on the website along with the papers for this meeting, and asked that Members familiarise themselves with these to ensure that scrutiny stays within these terms: To scrutinise, measure and actively promote improvement in the Council’s performance in the provision of services and compliance with Council policies, aims and objectives in the area of children and young people, including: • School Improvement • Schools Organisation • School Support Services • Education Welfare & Inclusion • Early Years Development • Special Educational Needs • Governor Services • Children’s Social Services • Children & Young People’s Partnership • Youth Services and Justice • Children’s Play Services · To assess the impact of partnerships with and resources and services provided by · external organisations including the Welsh Government, Welsh Government · Sponsored Public Bodies, joint local government services and quasi-departmental non-governmental bodies on the effectiveness of Council service delivery. To report to an appropriate Cabinet or Council meeting on its findings and to make recommendations on measures which may enhance Council performance and service delivery in this area.
Apologies were received from Patricia Arlotte, Cllrs Ahmed and Boes.
None were declared.
The minutes of the previous meeting held on 6th May, 2025 were approved as correct and signed by the Chairperson.
Decision as recorded
RESOLVED: That the Chairperson writes to the Cabinet Member on behalf of the Committee expressing their comments and observations captured during the way forward.
Members were advised that this agenda item enabled them to receive a briefing on school budgets, as requested by committee following its last meeting. The Chair welcomed: · Councillor Sarah Merry, Deputy Leader and Cabinet Member for Education Councillor Chris Weaver, Cabinet Member for Finance, Modernisation & Performance · Chris Lee, Corporate Director, Resources · Melanie Godfrey, Director of Education & Lifelong Learning · Ian Allwood, Head of Finance. The Cabinet Members were invited to make an opening statement. Cllr Merry outlined those challenges facing schools at the moment, including attendance, increasing numbers of children needing support for additional learning needs, impact of financial issues facing families and falling numbers of children in primary schools and that the presentation would explain how this impacts on the budgets and the challenges faced. Cllr Merry added that the management of the budgets is important, and the aim is to work constructively with primary, secondary and special schools to decide how best to shape the budget formula. Cllr Weaver thanked the committee for the opportunity to discuss the budget situation early in the year, and recognised the challenges faced by Schools, Children and Adult services, which would be covered in the presentation, and offered an opportunity for questions to be raised and discussed. Officers gave information on the current situation with schools anticipated to be in deficit for year ending 31st March 2026. This was anticipated to be 55 schools – 45 Primary, 9 Secondary and 1 Special school. 7 of those schools had been in deficit for 3 consecutive years, 22 schools for 2 consecutive years and 15 for 1 year. Officers gave details of the contributing factors leading to this deficit situation, which included increased complexity of needs for children and the financial pressures associated, funding formula based on attendance as opposed to places available, timings of funding decisions in order to make decisions, pressure to deliver educational outcomes with financial constraints and that some schools do not fill their spaces until other schools are already full. Other cost pressures relate to costs of property repairs and utilities and more experienced teachers in Cardiff compared to other Local Authorities which is beneficial to education but require higher salary costs and increased NI costs. Officers explained the School in Deficit Protocol and the process that is followed by schools and the Local Authority to agree this. They also explained that this is a collaborative process to plan to get budgets back on track. Officers further explained that they are currently working with 8 or 9 schools to agree a medium-term financial plan. It was re-iterated that there is an understanding that the financial pressures are impacting on educational delivery and outcomes. Members were advised there has been an increase in the number of schools in deficit in the last 6/7 years, so this process has been refined. Plans come in from schools and recruitment decisions are signed off by the Finance team. Schools are supported by Local Financial Management Officers (LFMO). Officers explained that providing additional funding to schools is constrained by the School Financial Funding Regulations, and these are due to be commented on by Welsh Government. Suggestions and recommendations are expected within the next few months and will impact on the review of schools formula funding. Members thanked officers for the presentation and asked whether there was still uncertainty around budgets covering NI increases and salary increases in schools and any support from grants. Officers advised that they are hoping for clarity on the NI situation in the next 6-8 weeks but are expecting this to be in line with budget plans and predictions. In terms of wage increases, this was referring to 2026/2027 and there is no indication what funds will be available, what the pay award might be or other inflationary pressures. Whereas in previous years, deficits did not end up being as bad as predicted, things are currently uncertain, and plans are based on deficit positions. Members asked whether there were concerns regarding the impact of losing staff due to financial constraints especially on children with additional needs and other vulnerable groups and if this is disproportionately impacting on those in education. Officers explained that the approach is very tentative, and looking at cutting posts is not the first decision. In the last year, approximately 10-15 posts have been cut across all schools to improve the deficit positions. The approach is to focus on in-year budget positions and to get back on track to balance the budgets both for schools showing deficits and surpluses. It is appropriate for the Local Authority to have deficit control, but also to challenge Head Teachers and many offered alternative solutions. In terms of the impact being disproportionate, schools are responding appropriately, although the impact on ALN was acknowledged. Members asked if once the recommendations are received regarding the school funding formula, if the response can be brought back to committee and this was agreed. Officers asked why grants from Welsh Government did not form part of overall schools formula funding in the first place, rather than being provided during the year. Officers explained that Welsh Government tried to simplify this a few years ago. The terms and conditions attached to the grants can be very specific in terms of what it can be used for and how much is allocated and are often allocated directly to schools. The Welsh Government is looking at encouraging 22 Local Authorities in Wales to be consistent, but these all vary, as do all schools in Cardiff, which is why the Schools Budget Forum is worked with very closely. Members asked if there is a cost made by the Local Authority when agreeing for a school to go into deficit and were advised that this is not the case as they do not want to make them coming out of the situation more difficult. This is managed through using surplus funding elsewhere, and extra costs are absorbed centrally. Members then asked whether making less preferable schools more attractive would be more financially viable than deficit positions and were advised that it would depend on whether those children were in the area or whether they would be looking outside Cardiff boundaries. They also explained that how attractive a school is, is based on outcomes and standards but also parental perception, which is difficult to control, especially if outcomes are similar. This is driven by the school improvement agenda. Members asked whether the Deficit Protocol is working given the increase in schools in this position and that some have been there for over 3 years and if this is legal or is there flexibility within it. Officers explained that this is a way for Local Authorities to work with schools to make improvements and that this is a relationship of trust that schools sign up to. There are some local differences, but the main elements are the same and aim for all schools to be out of this position within 4 years. It is important to work with the schools, as they may not be able to get out of this situation if they are just told to come back to a balanced position. This has taken longer in some situations and those schools have been worked with to move the situation forwards. Members asked if there are too many schools in Cardiff, given that 1/5th are undersubscribed, and were advised that consideration is given to the current situation but also future needs and fluctuating birth rates, so consideration to budget, planning and numbers of schools is a long-term view. Members then asked about the link between physical attendance and funding, and the impact post COVID non-attendance has had on this and whether absenteeism is likely to improve or this was the new normal. Officers explained that absenteeism does not impact on funding, it is based on ‘on roll’ numbers for funding and that attendance rates are improving but are not yet at pre COVID levels. Schools and Education Welfare Teams are continuing to work on this. Officers resumed the presentation and provided details on budgets and balances and explained the process of pooled budgets that are agreed in collaboration with schools and specific sectors such as ALN, Pupil Referral Unit’s, Educational Psychologists and attendance officers. Schools have the option to sign up to these or fund these from their budgets directly. Members asked whether it had been considered that schools combine to have reduced costs for utilities through better rates, and were advised that the line referred to in the budget presentation was relating to energy infrastructure rather than rates, but they do work with schools and across the wider Council estate to achieve better rates, but usage levels still vary. Members asked if solar energy had been considered and were advised that this is in place in some schools and they have worked with schools to pilot innovations and look at how successful this has been. Members also asked if an increase in the numbers of schools in deficit was a trend across Wales and were advised that this is the case, with many others being in this situation. Members asked if the national funding formula used in England would be preferable in Wales and were advised that it is useful to be able to find local solutions based on local situation, although it is appreciated that Welsh Government are trying to find a consistent approach across the 22 Local Authorities. Members asked whether given the financial situation and as a result of pay awards and NI and pension increases, if this situation is likely to remain for schools, and were advised that pay awards come to the Local Authority first so money can be found to fund these increases and that does not come from the budget set at the start of the year. Members then asked whether the uncertainty and timing of budgets and grants means the cycle of uncertainty would remain and were advised that Welsh Government previously had a timetable, but uncertainty out of their control can lead to delays. The earlier settlements are received, the more can be planned for and this is helpful. Additional grant money advised of towards the end of the year is likely to continue and can help schools. Given the figures provided and the increase in complexity of needs, Members asked what has happened to make increased demand on budgets and were advised that there is not one specific factor but cited medical advances leading to longer life span and finishing education, clear distinction between physical and emotional and wellbeing needs, increased understanding of autism and neurodiversity and the fact that the Children’s Hospital is in Cardiff. This increase is not specific to Cardiff or Wales and has impacted across England too. Members commented on the importance of ensuring teachers and headteachers are supporting while in these deficit situations to support staff wellbeing and avoid staff turnover and were advised by officers that this support is seen as important and a lot of the value of the school comes from the staff who support children and deliver the education. Finally, Members asked how schools know how much they can take out of the pooled budgets for various reasons, and officers responded by explaining that schools have the option to buy into the pooled budget and the cost of this is determined by the number of staff they have but is not restricted. They can choose to not buy in and fund any costs from their budget. RESOLVED: That the Chairperson writes to the Cabinet Member on behalf of the Committee expressing their comments and observations captured during the way forward.
Decision as recorded
RESOLVED: That the Chairperson writes to the Cabinet Member on behalf of the Committee expressing their comments and observations captured during the way forward.
Members were advised that this agenda item was to provide Members with an opportunity to undertake pre-decision scrutiny to consider and agree for the Council to undertake a consultation exercise to federate St Mellons Church in Wales Primary into The Saints Federation prior to its consideration by Cabinet at its meeting on the 19 June 2025. The Chairperson welcomed: · Councillor Sarah Merry, Deputy Leader and Cabinet Member for Education Councillor Chris Weaver, Cabinet Member for Finance, Modernisation & Performance · Melanie Godfrey, Director of Education & Lifelong Learning · Helen Williams, Assistant Director of Education & Lifelong Learning; · Ruth Lock, Governor Services Manager, Education & Lifelong Learning. The Cabinet Member was invited to make an opening statement. Cllr Merry explained that the report to Cabinet was seeking authority to proceed to consultation to federate St Mellons CIW School following a recent Estyn Inspection that judges that special measure are required. By agreeing to this, it would secure the situation and support the improvement plan which aims to strengthen Faith based education and build capacity. It was explained that the school has experienced a number of recent changes, including moving to a new building, a rapid increase in pupil numbers and the secondment of a new Head Teacher following the retirement of the Head Teacher. The Local Authority is working with the school to make improvements and address the Estyn Report findings. The plan would be to start the consultation in September for 6 weeks, with the aim for a decision to be made around October half term and changes to take place from March/April 2026, in line with the statutory framework. Members asked if there is one governing body in the current situation (Voluntary Aided) and if St Mellons (Voluntary Controlled) would come under that governing body and if this would be voluntary aided or voluntary controlled. Officers advised that it remains one governing body and voluntary aided but would be merged, so voluntary controlled representatives would sit on this, the community would be represented too. Officers will work with Legal teams to reflect this. Members considered that the status of the governing body would need to be clarified for each school and discussed with the Diocese. Members asked if federatation would help financially, even though this is not the driving force, and were advised that collaboration would increase efficiencies, and sharing resources would lead to better outcomes for children and young people. Members questioned what the outcome would be if this did not go-ahead and were advised that as the school is under Estyn Special Measures (Out of Category), and has an improvement plan in place, this would be complex and would need an experienced Head Teacher to lead them through and out of this situation. If it did not federate, there would be a need to look for another Head Teacher which could be difficult to achieve, and the continuity and momentum built up so far with the current Head would be lost. Members referred to the Single Impact Assessment (SIA) and asked about increasing the use of incidental Welsh for staff and pupils as recommended in the inspection report, whether this was meeting the requirement of the new curriculum, if this was achievable, and if they had considered support from the regional arrangements planned from September. Officers advised that new Professional Learning Arrangements will respond more specifically to needs of specific areas, and stressed the excellent Welsh Medium sector of schools in Cardiff and that work is being done to create partnerships with schools to support each other with the development of the Welsh language. Members asked how the consultation would be carried out, how this would be shared with parents and whether this would involve all parents or just those of children at St Mellons. Officers advised that this would includes all parents and children for all 3 schools, and meetings would be held, surveys sent out and parent friendly guides created. Members asked what had been done to include all stakeholders in the consultation process, especially in relation to Child’s Rights, what had been done to increase buy in to the plan and whether the recommendations could be included so those who contributed can see what the outcomes are. This feedback was welcomed by officers and the SIA will be amended to reflect this. TheYouth Council representative asked about how the views of students are heard and how feedback would be provided on the impact of this Officers explained that they will work with School Councils, and representatives to provide feedback, and a report will be provided at the end of the consultation to be accessed by all. RESOLVED: That the Chairperson writes to the Cabinet Member on behalf of the Committee expressing their comments and observations captured during the way forward.
Members were advised that this report requested agreement from Members to commence the committee’s work programming discussions for the current municipal year. The output from these discussions would be brought back to September’s meeting, to be signed off. The Chair invited the Scrutiny Officer to briefly outline the report and seek agreement on a way forward. Members suggested a calendar of events would be helpful and allow for reflection and suggested discussion via email, which was accepted. The calendar will be brought to the meeting in September by the Scrutiny Officer.
Part of an issue followed across 3 meetings
There were none.
Members discussed the information received and identified a number of issues which the Chairperson agreed would be included in the letters that would be sent, on behalf of the Committee, to the relevant Cabinet Members and Officers.
1st July, 2025 – 4.30pm.
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