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There is no summary of this meeting yet. One is written once the council publishes the minutes. The agenda and papers are below.
Apologies for absence were received from D. Lewis (Children’s Services).
There were no declarations of interest made at the beginning or during the course of the meeting.
The Chairman opened the meeting and introductions were made. The Legal Advisor to the Sub-Committee outlined the procedure for the meeting and reported that Members had previously familiarised themselves with the report of the Licensing Manager, the application and plan of the premises together with the written submissions from the responsible authority who had objected to the application. The Licensing Manager presented the report and outlined the application submitted for a variation to the premises licence in respect of 8 Til Late/General Store, 192 Bedwas Road, Caerphilly CF83 3AU. The application sought to permit the following Licensable Activities: · Supply of Alcohol (Off Sales only) · Monday to Sunday inclusive, 08:00 – 00:00 The application seeks to increase the sale of alcohol permitted times, this is an additional 2 hours on a Sunday morning and an extra 1 hour at night Monday to Sunday. The applicant has also submitted a new premises plan showing revised layout of the premises. The Licensing Manager referred to representations received in relation to the application from responsible authorities that were set out in paragraph 1.9 of the report, copies of which were attached to the report circulated with the agenda. Attention was drawn to the local policy considerations as set out in within the Licensing Officers report and to the way in which the Sub Committee should deal with the application. The Sub Committee were also referred to the recommendation set out in the report, which considered the position of the Responsible Authorities of the Applicant’s ability to promote the Licensing Objectives (particularly the promotion of the Prevention of Public Nuisance Licensing Objective). Members were advised that the applicant had been appraised of the comments of the Responsible Authorities and responses to those comments which could be found on pages 61 to 65 of the report. The Licensing Manager confirmed that the Child Protection Officer had offered her apologies for the meeting and that the Sub Committee would hear from all the other Responsible Authorities who would confirm their position during the meeting. The Chair thanked the Officer and all parties present, were invited to ask questions. There were no questions for Licensing and the Chair invited representations from the Applicant and representative Mr Khehra. Mr Khehra stated that the store has been open for 42 years and had served the local community and had gradually increased the trading hours from 10pm to 12 pm over time to serve their customers primarily to cater for those people that work unsociable hours such as taxi drivers and factory workers. Members were advised that when the store initially opened there was only two licensed premises within the location and there are now seven in the area with the latest being open until 10:30. This was the main reason that the hours were extended to make the business viable. Members were advised that to address some of the conditions raised by the Responsible Authorities the CCTV had been upgraded, and extra signage had been placed in the front of the shop to request that customers are respectful and quiet when leaving the premises. It was confirmed by Mr Khehra that there had never been any issues with noise from customers. The Chair thanked Mr Khehra and invited Members and Officers to ask questions. A Member sought clarification on how long the business has had the licence to sell alcohol. The Licensing Manager confirmed that the Legislation changed in 2005. The previous 1964 Licensing Act changed and the Premises Licensing Act for this store came into effect since 2005. The store would have had a licence prior to 2005 under the old 1964 Act. A Member raised concern over the store selling alcohol beyond the permitted hours and commented that there was an issue with trust that the store would not sell alcohol to children the age of 18 and questioned why the need to increase the hours to sell alcohol. Mr Khehra stated that the additional licensed premises introduced within the location affected the business and to make it viable the longer hours were required, in terms of trust Members were assured that they were strongly against selling alcohol to anyone under the age of 18 and staff are very strict in checking identification of individuals and there had been no complaints or concerns that alcohol had been served to children under the age of 18. One Member commented that on pages four and eight of the report Environmental Health noted that the Applicant had provided very little information in their submission as to any mitigation that had been considered or measures to be put in place to minimise the potential impact the proposed extended hours for alcohol sales may have upon the prevention of public nuisance to nearby resident and the local community. The Member sought confirmation as to whether the residents know that the business was looking to extend the hours. The Committee were advised that the business sought advice from Licensing Officers and had placed signs in the shop window and one on the lamppost and had advertised in the newspaper to inform residents what their plans were. Members were advised that the applicants have a good relationship with neighbours and conversations had taken place with them to advise them of the plans and the neighbours have no issues with the additional hours of trade. Mr Khehra stated that they were very conscious of protecting the neighbours to ensure they minimise any disturbance for them and if there were any occasions where were talking loudly outside the shop, he would ask the individuals to be respectful of the neighbours. It was felt that the reasons why there was no objections from the neighbours was because there was a good relationship with them. A Member commented that if the additional hours were agreed this would set a precedent and the other licensed premises in the area may then seek to increase their hours which was the concern raised by Environmental Health and the Member sought comments from the applicant. Mr Khehra stated that each of the premises would need to be considered individually based on their locations. The Chair sought confirmation as to how long had the store been selling alcohol beyond the licensed hours. Mr Khehra stated that originally the store closing time was 10pm this was gradually extended over a period of two year following the two other licensed premises opening and this had an impact on the business. Mr Khehra stated that the premises may have exceeded its permitted hours within the last year. Mr Khehra apologised for going over the time and stated that they had lost track of the times due to them extending their closing time over that period. A Member enquired about what had happened following a complaint about the premises selling alcohol beyond the licensed hours. The licensing Authority confirmed that the initial visit was conducted by an Officer from within the Licensing Department and it was identified with staff at the store that alcohol was being sold beyond the permitted hours. It was that initial visit that generated the application being submitted to extend the hours. Following the submission of the application a visit was undertaken by the Assistant Licensing Manager in her role as Responsible Authority and an Officer from Gwent Police. Confirmation was sought on who owned the bin in the photograph and what the business does to ensure that people use the bins correctly. It was confirmed that the bin belonged to the Council and sometimes it overflows. Members were assured that Mr Khehra and staff shop would ensure that any waste overspilling or discarded on the floor would be cleaned up every night to keep the area litter free and tidy. There were no further questions, and the Chair invited Gwent Police to submit their representations. PC. A. Jones addressed the Sub Committee outlining the representations included within the report and confirmed the Applicant had agreed to the suggested additional conditions. Therefore, the Police had no objection to the application. The Committee were advised that Gwent Police had considered antisocial behaviour, and crime reports with the area and there were no apparent concerns of such reports in the immediate area and there were no specific calls in relation to the licensed premises. The Chair sought confirmation that Gwent Police had no calls logged for the area. PC Jones confirmed that there had been no calls generated in relation to the licensed premises that would undermine the promotion of the licensing objectives. There were no further questions for Gwent Police and the Chair invited the Environmental Health Pollution Team Officer to present their representations. The Officer outlined the representations within in the report in respect of the application to extend licensable hours of the supply of alcohol. Concerns were expressed about the sale of alcohol after 11pm, there were no objections to standardizing the hours up until 11pm Monday to Sunday as the premises is predominantly in a residential area with a large, grassed area on the opposite side and referred Members to the images within the report. Concerns were expressed about the possible excessive noise and public nuisance from customers potentially hanging around after purchasing and consuming alcohol in the area or nearby. Members heard how Environmental Health object to the application as it could undermine the Prevention of Public Nuisance Licensing Objective. A Member sought confirmation from the Environmental Health Officer that the biggest concerns was that this would be setting a precedent if the application were granted. It was agreed that this was the biggest concern as other premises could seek to extend their hours to gain a competitive edge and this would increase the amount of alcohol being sold and increase rowdy behaviour from some individuals causing a public nuisance. The Legal Officer stated that the shop can open until midnight and there would still be a problem of patronage noise when background noise levels reduce and asked if this would be accepted by Environmental health. The Environmental Health Officer accepted that there would still be some noise but stated that the sale of alcohol after 11pm could be attracting rowdy individuals. The Legal Officer pointed out that the individual purchasing alcohol to consume off site has responsibility over their own behaviour and asked if Environmental Health accepted this. The Officer confirmed that individuals do have the responsibility but to stop the supply of alcohol during those increased hours prevents any rowdy and antisocial behaviour occurring particularly in a deprived area such as Lansbury Park and that is why the Lansbury Park Off Licences premises have the hours they do. Clarification was sought on the hours that the Lansbury Park Licensed Premises were open until. The Licensing Manager confirmed that the two Lansbury Park licensed Premises opening times were 8:00am until 22:00pm for 44 Attlee court and 8:00am until 23:00pm for 42 Maxton Court, Morning Meadows General store is 8:00am until 23:00pm and are listed on appendix 4 of the report. Officers discussed that other businesses could similarly request to extend their opening times by applying for planning permission but their license to serve alcohol would remain as what their licence permits them to. Confirmation was requested as to possible reasons for the lack of residential representations being submitted. The Environmental Health Officers stated that some of the reasons could be because possibly they were not aware of what was happening, some people do not know how or where to make their complaints and that the applicant had stated that there were good relationships with the neighbours. The Chair summarised and stated that this application was to be treated on its own merits however commented that this was similar to other applications brought before the committee and the potential for public nuisance specifically in residential areas and it appeared that the application was seeking to gain a competitive edge on all those others that close at 10pm, this could result in those businesses seeking to do the same and could lead to a lot more problems in the future. Mr Khehra stated that the additional time was not requested to gain a competitive edge it was requested to make the business more viable. There were no further questions for Environmental Health Pollution Officer and the Chair invited the Licensing Authority in its role as Responsible Authority to present their representations. The Senior Licensing Officer addressed the Sub Committee outlining the representations included within the report and confirmed the Applicant had agreed to the suggested additional conditions. Therefore, the Licensing Authority in its role as Responsible Authority had no objection to the application. The Chair queried the diagram for the premises and the Officer confirmed that there was a very slight change in layout and the new plan mirrors the layout as it exists. A Member queried the outcome following the visit about alcohol being sold beyond the permitted hours. Members were advised that the Licensing Officer visited and clarified with a member of staff that they were selling beyond their permitted hours, it was addressed at the time, and it was requested to regularise this they were to submit an application to support the hours that they were selling alcohol. They were told to cease selling alcohol after their permitted hours, which they had. The Trading Standards Officer confirmed that following the initial complaint Trading Standards who are responsible for licensing enforcement carried out two test purchases and on both occasions the sale was refused. There were no further questions for the Licensing Authority and the Chair invited the Trading Standards Officer in its role as Responsible Authority to present their representations. The Trading Standards Officer addressed the Sub Committee outlining the representations included within the report and confirmed the Applicant had agreed to the suggested additional conditions. Therefore, Trading Standards in its role as Responsible Authority had no objection to the application. All parties were then afforded the opportunity to sum up before the Licensing and Gambling Sub Committee retired to make its decision. In closing the Licensing Manager asked Members to consider all the representations before them, the evidence heard at the meeting, and all Licensing guidance when making their decision. The Sub Committee were reminded of the need to consider the promotion of the Licensing Objectives and whether the applicant would be able to meet the same. It was noted that Mr Khehra had indicated that alcohol was being sold outside of the permitted hours which was a concern and going forward members would want reassurances that it was clear what the hours were and any conditions that would be attached would only be if there are additional hours granted. Members were asked to note the application also sought to address the change of layout, when making their decision. Gwent Police were satisfied with the additional conditions that the applicant had agreed to and had nothing further to add. The Environmental Health Officer objected to the hour applied for which would undermine the licensing objective for prevention of public nuisance but would have no objections to standardising the hours to 23:00 giving an extra half hour on Sundays and the 8:00 opening time providing an additional two hours on Sundays. The Officer confirmed that they were satisfied with the additional conditions that the applicant had agreed to and had nothing further to add. The Licensing Authority were satisfied with the additional conditions that the applicant had agreed to and had nothing further to add. Trading Standards were also satisfied with the additional conditions that the applicant had agreed to and had nothing further to add. Mr Khehra reiterated that they would follow any guidelines and was confident that there would be no issues with public nuisance but if this were to happen, they would deal with those issues as their neighbours and the surrounding area were important to them. The Chair thanked all parties for their submissions and handed over to the Legal Advisor to explain the procedure. The Legal Advisor informed all parties present that the Sub Committee would retire to consider the representations made at the meeting and they would be informed in writing of the decision in the next 5 days. The Sub Committee retired at 11:13am to make its decision and all other parties left the meeting. The decision of the Licensing and Gambling Sub Committee (“Sub-Committee”) regarding the hearing held on 13 February 2025 in respect of the variation application for the existing premises licence is to permit part of the request variation of the Licensable Activity. The licensable activity (Supply of Alcohol [Off Sales Only]) is amended from: · Supply of Alcohol (Off Sales only) Monday to Saturday 08:00 – 23:00 Sunday 10:00 – 22:30 To: · Supply of Alcohol (Off Sales only) Monday to Sunday (inclusive 08:00 – 23:00 subject to the conditions as set out in Appendix 13 of the report (being the conditions agreed between the Applicant and several Responsible Authorities). The Sub-Committee further note and approve the variation to the premises plan forming part of the application. In reaching its decision the Sub-Committee gave regard to the four licensing objectives. There were no representations regarding public safety or the protection of children from harm. The single representation received [Environmental Health (Pollution Team)] principally involved regard to the prevention of public nuisance, and to an extent, the prevention of crime and disorder. Prevention of Public Nuisance The Sub-Committee took into account that the premises had been trading for decades (asserted to be 42 years) and there being no record of complaints in regard to public nuisance issues or allegation emanating from the premises brought to its attention by the Environmental Health Officer (“EHO”). It also gave weight that no resident representations either for or against the variation application had been received by the Licensing Authority in response to the variation application. In essence the EHO was concerned that, whilst accepting that the business could trade without engaging in off-sale of alcohol until midnight, the granting of the extended hours was likely to increase trade to the store at a very late hour. She outlined that the background noise of the local area would have significantly diminished by such time and the noise from patronage to the store to purchase off-sale alcohol between 11pm and midnight would cause a nuisance to neighbouring residents. She pointed out the proximity of the residential properties to the shop – given the shop was an end of terrace building. The Sub-Committee, in its deliberations considered whether the concerns of the EHO were adequately evidenced based or speculative. Whilst the existing business had traded for years, it was only relatively recently (previous 12 months or so, the Applicant providing no further specificity than this) that the store was being kept open beyond 11pm – and trading until midnight each night. The Sub-Committee concluded that to a significant extent the carrying out of the licensable activity (off-sales of alcohol) between 11pm and midnight would be a new aspect of the business and the EHO’s concerns are unavoidably speculative. The Sub-Committee took into account the Applicant’s reasons for the variation application. This was to enable all goods in the shop to be open for purchase until midnight and not having to refuse alcohol sales for the last hour of trading. It was submitted refusing someone an alcohol purchase in such circumstances makes it more likely to have noise from a disgruntled customer who may not understand, or wish to understand, the limits of the store’s premises licence. It was submitted that the further hour of trade was necessary on account of competing shops opening up in the local area – that compete with its own business until the other businesses shut (said to be a 10pm each evening currently). It was submitted that only occasional demand for off-site alcohol sales has been encountered and that the usual purchases are sandwiches and soft drinks from late night workers going to or from local factories or mobile work. The Sub-Committee determined that the greatest risk to the promotion of this licensing objective in this instance was late at night, as opposed to early morning. It was very unlikely that noise nuisance would be caused on account of customers attending the premises from the earlier hour of 8am on Sunday to purchase alcohol. The Sub-Committee considered the Applicant’s admission that for around the last year or so, she has sold off-site alcohol after 11pm from the premises without being licenced to do so. It was not made clear the extent or volumes of the sale. The Sub-Committee noted that the evidence from Trading Standards was that on being told to cease making such sales the Applicant appears to have complied – with two test purchases attempting to purchase alcohol after 11pm were appropriately refused. The explanation that given the family had operated the business for 42 years they had simply overlooked checking the details of their licence to be unacceptable. Paragraph 19.7 of the Council’s policy, correctly, places the onus on the Applicant to be aware of the limitations of their premises licence. The admitted breach of the existing licencing condition outline above gave the Sub-Committee a lack of confidence in the management of the premises. The breach was glaring and entirely avoidable. The Applicant’s store was currently trading an additional hour in off-sale alcohol to competing businesses in the Lansbury Park area, and an additional two hours for general trade than such competing businesses. The Sub-Committee drew the conclusion that the Applicant was of the view that the sale of off-site alcohol between 11pm and midnight would be sufficiently numerous and profitable to justify the making of the variation application and the necessary upgrades to her CCTV system at not insignificant expense. The Sub-Committee were of the view that off-sales trade during such hour in alcohol was expected to be relatively frequent. On balance, based on the evidence and submissions before it, in the Sub-Committee’s judgement the promotion of this licensing objective would not adequately be promoted by allowing the additional hour of licensable activity (between 11pm and midnight) even with the agreed licensing conditions at Appendix 13. There was a very real risk of noise levels from increased patronage to become a public nuisance at such an hour within a residential area. The Sub-Committee was obliged under its own policy to ensure that the particular local environment in which the premises is located is taken into account (paragraph 5.4 of the council’s policy). Prevention of Crime and Disorder The Sub-Committee took into account that some of the EHO’s representations touched on the licencing objective regarding the prevention of crime and disorder. The essence of the representation was that alcohol fuels disorderly conduct and there was a risk that people would purchase alcohol between 11pm and midnight and congregate and consume the same within close proximity to the shop and go on to engage in anti-social behaviour – particularly given the green space across the road of the premises. The noise from the same potentially undermining the licencing objective to prevent public nuisance. The Sub-Committee again concluded that there would inevitably be a degree of speculation in such representation – given the further hour of very late night off-sales was largely untested. Notwithstanding, the Sub-Committee gave weight to the Gwent Police’s representations, and verbal submission at the hearing, which did not indicate that such congregations or ASB had to date been an issue for them – notwithstanding the Applicant’s store can sell off-sale alcohol for an hour later than other nearby stores (11pm as opposed to 10pm). The Sub-Committee took into account paragraph 2.27 of the Revised Guidance under section 182 of the Licensing Act 2003 which states in regard to public nuisance: Beyond the immediate area surrounding the premises, these are matters for the personal responsibility of individuals under the law. An individual who engages in antisocial behaviour is accountable in their own right. Whilst the Sub-Committee accepted that the above is not specifically addressed at licensing objective of preventing crime and disorder – the principles in its judgement were equally applicable to that licensing objective. Again, the Sub-Committee gave weight to the undermining of its confidence in the Applicant to manage such potential issues given the lack of regard/awareness shown to the basic essential parameters of her current licence (by selling off-sale alcohol beyond 11pm without a licence). On balance, in the judgement of the Sub-Committee it was satisfied that the proposed conditions would adequately promote the promotion of the prevention of crime and disorder. Conclusion Given the Sub-Committee’s conclusion reached in terms of inadequate promotion of the licensing objective to prevent public nuisance, the variation was not granted in full. The Sub-Committee concluded that there was adequate promotion of the four licensing objectives to allow the regularisation/standardisation of the hours of licensable activity to 08:00-23:00 each day rather than maintain curtailed hours on Sunday. Any person aggrieved by this decision has 21 days from the date of written notification of the decision to appeal to the local Magistrates Court.
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